Calling r5d3 (and whoever else) out about dirty players (again)

[Texecutioner]

Or, more accurately, about 120 randomly (maybe) selected players did.

120 active NFL players isn't enough for you?

[Sascha]

Not when the NFL employs several thousand players.

You said entire NFL.

Perhaps the pollsters even rigged it to the point where a lot of NFC North opponents were asked, who knows? Still irrelevant.

And it's not that 120 players said Suh was the dirtiest player, but that the biggest percentage of those 120 thought so, so it's even less.

In fact the numbers are 36 out of 111 polled.

[BigBenCan7]

I seem to have a totally different opinion on dirty players than everyone in this thread, and I'm not quite sure how many of you actually played football. I know Mallard and Phil played basketball, but contact sports are different.

I, like Antonio Pierce, did not find much to be out of the ordinary from Gregg Williams' speech. Specifically asking players to target an ACL is over the top, but you better believe that when I played, we knew every offensive players injuries, because they were weaknesses. That doesn't mean that we were specifically trying to hurt the guys, but you knew where they were struggling and you were going to exploit it if you could. Players are always told to hit guys in the mouth and set the tone early by laying licks on guys, especially those that were debating even playing that day. There is a fine line between trying to inflict pain and trying to injure someone and it seems that the Saints tended more towards actually intending to injure men, but that does not make every guy dirty.

I'm not exactly sure how Richard Seymour's blindside punch to a quarterback can be construed as clean while anything James Harrison has done is dirty. In fact, one of the most commonly pointed to "dirty" plays of his, on Aaron Francisco, would be considered clean in Mallard's book. Lowering your head towards a moving target does not mean that you are trying to injure someone, that is how people have hit for as long as there have been helmets in football. Coaches always tried to encourage keeping your head up so you could see what you're tackling, but highlight reels always seemed to encourage the lowered head, leveling hits. These new concussion rules have suddenly changed everyone's mind on what is a great hit and what is a dirty hit. There are dirty guys, like Suh, Seymour, and Haynesworth, who intentionally try to injure someone with actions that are completely irrelevant to the play or after the play is over, but Harrison is not that kind of player. He plays hard and tries to hit guys as hard as he can, but he does it within the whistles and within what used to be the rules of the game. The only hit, in my opinion, that could be considered dirty is his suplex of Vince Young, which was his least harsh fine and is rarely mentioned, if ever, in the case against James Harrison.

[Blackmallard]

I know Mallard and Phil played basketball, but contact sports are different.

Basketball is a contact sport.

I, like Antonio Pierce, did not find much to be out of the ordinary from Gregg Williams' speech. Specifically asking players to target an ACL is over the top, but you better believe that when I played, we knew every offensive players injuries, because they were weaknesses. That doesn't mean that we were specifically trying to hurt the guys, but you knew where they were struggling and you were going to exploit it if you could. Players are always told to hit guys in the mouth and set the tone early by laying licks on guys, especially those that were debating even playing that day. There is a fine line between trying to inflict pain and trying to injure someone and it seems that the Saints tended more towards actually intending to injure men, but that does not make every guy dirty.

In the context of knowing that the Saints were paying bonuses for injuring players I took Williams to be telling the players to injure other players. It can be a fine line, you have to know the unwritten rules of the sport you are playing. I also know that invariably when you are playing on a competitive level teams have some guys who cross that fine line.

I would never suggest that "every guy" was dirty. If EVERYONE was dirty than that would mean that basically that was just the way that particular sport was played. There are some players who are the dirtiest and who do things I think the game would be better off without. Sometimes I like dirty players, but that doesn't stop me from recognizing that they are trying to hurt people or basically cheating.

I'm not exactly sure how Richard Seymour's blindside punch to a quarterback can be construed as clean

Was it a blindside punch? Sucker punches are very dirty, I remember it that Ben was looking right at him. I don't necessarily think Seymour is "clean". Also, it was not my meaning that it is "clean" to start throwing punches at other players between plays. What I meant was that if you lose your temper and are going to attack someone there's a right way and a wrong way to do it. It says something about your mentality and character if you kick someone on the ground vs. punch them while they are facing you. The kind of person who would kick someone on the ground is also going to cross the "fine line" at other times.

while anything James Harrison has done is dirty. In fact, one of the most commonly pointed to "dirty" plays of his, on Aaron Francisco, would be considered clean in Mallard's book.

I became convinced James Harrison was a dirty player because of things he has said in interviews. I think he's out there trying to injure people. I think there's a 50/50 shot that he confirms this explicitly sometime after he retires. I didn't come around to that way of thinking based on specific plays of his. I don't know what happened with him and Aaron Francisco. I know that some people think you are basically "supposed" to be trying to injure people in football, I am not one of them. That mentality where people try and do lasting harm to you during football games is part of why I don't play it competitively. A friend of mine had his ankle broken intentionally in a game. James Harrison's distinction between trying to "hurt" people and trying to "injure" them is a false one. They are synonyms, and generally you accomplish both in the exact same way. I realize that trying to hurt players by hitting them is part of football when its done within the game, but I also know that some players focus on that too much and take it too far. I'm pretty sure Harrison is one of those.

There are dirty guys, like Suh, Seymour, and Haynesworth, who intentionally try to injure someone with actions that are completely irrelevant to the play or after the play is over, but Harrison is not that kind of player. He plays hard and tries to hit guys as hard as he can, but he does it within the whistles and within what used to be the rules of the game. The only hit, in my opinion, that could be considered dirty is his suplex of Vince Young, which was his least harsh fine and is rarely mentioned, if ever, in the case against James Harrison.

Harrison intentionally commits illegal hits in order to injure other players and try to take them out of the game. That is what I hear him saying when he talks about "Hurting people, but not injuring them" and talking about having to retire if they start enforcing the rules more strictly. Its not something I can prove he's doing until he admits it, its just the impression I have gotten from him based on his personality and the things he's said.

When I say a player is dirty I usually mean that they show weak sportsmanship, especially but not necessarily in regards to being careless with the health and well being of their fellow players or with regards to cheating. Another category that I don't usually call "dirty" per se, but its along those lines are when players use cheap tricks that may even be legal but are frowned upon. Reggie Miller's method of drawing fouls by kicking his feet into other players was sort of dirty, he was stretching the bounds of good sportsmanship.

I'm not some sort of super nice player in sports, I use some "dirty" tactics and cheap tricks. I wouldn't say I was a dirty player, it wasn't part of my game to try and hurt people or do ticky tack BS, but I've been ejected from games before for crossing the line we keep talking about.

[BigBenCan7]

Basketball is a contact sport.

Then you and I have different definitions of a contact sport.

In the context of knowing that the Saints were paying bonuses for injuring players I took Williams to be telling the players to injure other players. It can be a fine line, you have to know the unwritten rules of the sport you are playing. I also know that invariably when you are playing on a competitive level teams have some guys who cross that fine line.

Agreed.

Was it a blindside punch? Sucker punches are very dirty, I remember it that Ben was looking right at him. I don't necessarily think Seymour is "clean". Also, it was not my meaning that it is "clean" to start throwing punches at other players between plays. What I meant was that if you lose your temper and are going to attack someone there's a right way and a wrong way to do it. It says something about your mentality and character if you kick someone on the ground vs. punch them while they are facing you. The kind of person who would kick someone on the ground is also going to cross the "fine line" at other times.

He wasn't looking the opposite direction, more looking past him while walking by him, but he certainly wasn't expecting a punch. I do agree though that it is much more acceptable to square up with a guy and fight him to "vent" your anger, so to speak. Not exactly clean, but better than a cheap shot.

I became convinced James Harrison was a dirty player because of things he has said in interviews. I think he's out there trying to injure people. I think there's a 50/50 shot that he confirms this explicitly sometime after he retires. I didn't come around to that way of thinking based on specific plays of his. I don't know what happened with him and Aaron Francisco. I know that some people think you are basically "supposed" to be trying to injure people in football, I am not one of them. That mentality where people try and do lasting harm to you during football games is part of why I don't play it competitively. A friend of mine had his ankle broken intentionally in a game. James Harrison's distinction between trying to "hurt" people and trying to "injure" them is a false one. They are synonyms, and generally you accomplish both in the exact same way. I realize that trying to hurt players by hitting them is part of football when its done within the game, but I also know that some players focus on that too much and take it too far. I'm pretty sure Harrison is one of those.

When I say a player is dirty I usually mean that they show weak sportsmanship, especially but not necessarily in regards to being careless with the health and well being of their fellow players or with regards to cheating. Another category that I don't usually call "dirty" per se, but its along those lines are when players use cheap tricks that may even be legal but are frowned upon. Reggie Miller's method of drawing fouls by kicking his feet into other players was sort of dirty, he was stretching the bounds of good sportsmanship.

This is where you and I differ. I do not take what James Harrison does to be dirty, nor do I typically find anything wrong with how John Lynch, Rodney Harrison, or Hines Ward play either. They play tough and they try to hit guys as hard as they can as often as they can. It is the guys like Brandon Spikes, who gauge guys eyes when he thinks he's hidden from cameras in the pile that I call dirty. Or the Haynesworth's, Suh's and Seymour's that stomp on guys or pull their hair after the play. I do agree that there are plenty of those kind of guys that exist in the game, I just don't think that a lot of the names that have come up in this thread are actually dirty players. Playing the game of football violently has never been a problem with me, it is the guys who try to hurt people outside the game of football that I find to be dirty.

I'm not some sort of super nice player in sports, I use some "dirty" tactics and cheap tricks. I wouldn't say I was a dirty player, it wasn't part of my game to try and hurt people or do ticky tack BS, but I've been ejected from games before for crossing the line we keep talking about.

If you're not playing dirty you're not playing to win.

[Blackmallard]

Then you and I have different definitions of a contact sport.

Yours isn't really a definition though, more of a backhand insult, and my definition corresponds to the actual definition of "contact sport" that exists objectively outside of this conversation.

No one is suggesting that basketball players tackle each other or an equivalent.

This is where you and I differ. I do not take what James Harrison does to be dirty,

I'll explain exactly why I think Harrison is dirty, its his general attitude combined specifically to his reaction to the emphasis on the NFL's efforts to limit helmet to helmet hits. The way he reacted to it I took it to mean that part of his game plan is to deliver illegal helmet to helmet hits in order to hurt them. He has essentially become a spokesman against player safety. That attitude is one of the worst things going in football, it puts pressure on defensive players to turn their brains to mush by hitting people with their head in addition to the similar damage it causes to offensive players. I think its particularly clear how destructive that attitude is in light of Junior Seau's suicide.

nor do I typically find anything wrong with how John Lynch, Rodney Harrison, or Hines Ward play either. They play tough and they try to hit guys as hard as they can as often as they can.

I didn't mention any of them as dirty players, I think Ruuuuddddiii brought up Lynch as dirty and mentioned Harrison's name. Rodney Harrison has that reputation and even embraced it to some degree though, so there's probably something to it.

It is the guys like Brandon Spikes, who gauge guys eyes when he thinks he's hidden from cameras in the pile that I call dirty. Or the Haynesworth's, Suh's and Seymour's that stomp on guys or pull their hair after the play. I do agree that there are plenty of those kind of guys that exist in the game, I just don't think that a lot of the names that have come up in this thread are actually dirty players. Playing the game of football violently has never been a problem with me, it is the guys who try to hurt people outside the game of football that I find to be dirty.

When its a major part of a players game to deliver hits that were made illegal in order to prevent injuries with the intent of causing injuries, that is also dirty and outside the "game". Its not no-holds barred, you have to deliver hits in a certain way, which always has been subject to change. Its the same way in every sport all the way to the actual "fighting" sports like boxing and MMA. Those rules are a part of the sport. We're not watching an 11 on 11 man game of rochambeau, they are playing a game that involved blocking and tackling.

Its not to the same degree as Suh mauling people for no reason and kicking people on the ground. What Suh has been doing combines a disregard for safety with the cheapness of coughing during someone's golf swing.

If you're not playing dirty you're not playing to win.

I don't think we have some vastly different definition of "dirty player". A lot of what I have been saying is in response to Ruuudddiii essentially trying to say that there aren't players trying to injure other players, and not necessarily speaking to exactly where the line is. A certain amount of "dirty" play is expected and basically necessary on competitive teams.

[StevenSD]

If you're not playing dirty you're not playing to win.

If you're not cheating on a test you're not trying to pass.