2008 Debate Game FINALS!!!

[ruuuuudiii]

Alright, we have made the finals. Remember to keep it above the belt.

First, to introduce the contestants.

Winning his group most convincingly, Azazel.

The one and only Wolverine.

Another group winner, J_Ray.

And the wild card, LOR2435.

Good luck to all 4 of you.


Now, the scoring in this round will be a bit different. There will still be a poll at the end of the game, but the poll will only count for 60% of your score. I will privately try to contact three judges, and each will have a vote worth 10%, There ballots are cast privately, to me via PM. Finally, my vote will count for the last 10%.

Remember, when voting, DO NOT VOTE FOR WHO YOU AGREE WITH, VOTE FOR WHO PRESENTED THEIR ARGUMENTS THE BEST!!!!!


Now on to the snenario. And please don't tell me about the impossibilities of this actually happening, I think we're all wise enough to know that. Doesn't make the debating any less fun.



Already this season, Brett Favre, Michael Strahan, Warren Sapp and Jonathan Ogden have announced their retirements. For the sake of this debate, I'll say that Junior Seau, Orlando Pace and Jason Taylor join those 4 in the retirement pool. Fast Forward five years. Six of the Seven players make the Hall of Fame first ballot, who's the odd man out and why?

The four of you have 24 hours to make an opening statement. If all four have taken less than that amount, the debate can start as soon as the fourth opening is posted, otherwise it can start at 10:30 EST tomorrow morning, regardless of the number of replies.

Good luck, and have fun.

[Wolverine]

The test I like to do is go through real quick and if I pause at a name.. It usually means they aren't a hall of famer..

I didn't pause at anyone like Favre or Sapp..

The one guy I did pause for was Orlando Pace..

Since there is another LT in the group.. Jonathan Ogden, take a look at the comparison.

Ogden has made as many Pro-Bowls as Pace has played seasons... 10

Pace has played 10 years, Ogden 11, yet Pace is 36 games behind Ogden in terms of starts.

Ogden is the gold standard. He is a sure fire hall of famer.. Pace is a really good tackle and all, but he hasn't been the rock Ogden was for 10 straight years.

Pace's last two years have really put a mark on his career as a great tackle. It's extremely hard to make the hall as an offensive lineman, and in my opinion if you don't have the rock solid career that Ogden had or at least close to it by starting a lot of games and going to a lot of Pro-Bowls.. You are not a hall of famer.

Take recent HOFers into account as well..

Is he as good as Gary Zimmerman?

Gene Hickerson?

I don't think so...

I leave out Orlando Pace..

and uh.. No New Taxes!

[Azazel]

What has happened this NFL offseason? I cannot remember a season where the NFL had so many huge talent guys leave at the same time. In 1999 Steve Young and Dan Marino retired at the same time. Barry Sanders and John Elway both retired after the 1998 NFL season. There are plenty of instances where the bigstars have retired in the same year, But I cannot think of a year like this. The only fair way is to go through each player and see why they would deserve going to the hall, so lets begin....


Brett Favre- Will he make it in?

Will the sun rise in the East tomorrow?

Will you ever have to pay taxes again?

Will gas prices go up this summer?

Will the year 2009 come after the year 2008?

Will Soel look ravishing in a set of red heels?

Will we all die someday?

The answer to all is a "yes" there really isn't a bigger shoe-in on the list, there isn't even a need to go through how the man is #1 in almost every category...lets not waste time her......on to Gappy.

Michael Strahan- Unfortunately for people like myself who are not a fan of this guy, he is a must for Canton in 2013. (and when he gets in he better thank Jon Runyon for single handedly making him a pro-bowler all those years.) He recorded the most sacks in a single 16 game season with 22.5 (even if the other hall of famer on this list GAVE it to him, and he didn't EARN it, he still owns the record.) . His 141.5 career sacks ranks fifth on the NFL’s all-time list. He is a seven-time Pro Bowler and four time NFL All-Pro first- teamer. He played in two Super Bowls, with his team going 1-1.

He was good at stopping the run and great at rushing the passer. The Giants had the Reeves, Fassell, and Coughlin eras in New York. The Giants made the playoffs under all three coaches. Fassell’s team lost to the Ravens in the Super Bowl and Coughlin’s Giants won it last year.

The New York Giants had many good players over the years. Tiki Barber was a great runner. Kerry Collins had some good years before Eli Manning arrived. Jessie Armstead was his sidekick on defense earlier in his career, and later in his career the entire defensive line became the strength of the team. The one constant the team has had from 1993 to 2007 has been Michael Strahan. He is the one that kept this team together through good times and bad. When Barber and Coughlin were disagreeing, Shockey was mad about the offense, and when Burress wanted the ball more, it was Strahan that made sure the team wasn’t ripped apart beyond repair. He was the team leader that seemed to settle this team down when things were at their worst.

I’m not sure they get over their 0-2 start without him in 2007. It was his desire and effort that led the Giants through their historic Super Bowl run in 2007. Eli Manning and a lot of other players played well, but they don’t win that ring without Strahan leading the defense.


Warren Sapp- So far this is the toughest sell. I do not like him personally, I believe he is a pompus arrogant overrated ass. but I believe he deserves first ballot induction. Here is how bad things were before Sapp arrived in Tampa Bay. Tampa Bay had lost 10 games or more, 12 seasons in a row. They hadn’t made the playoffs since 1982, which was a strike-shortened season. The year 1981 marked their last playoff season. It was one of the worst franchises in the NFL and a death sentence to anyone drafted there. In his first season Tampa Bay broke that string finishing 7-9.

It's not that Sapp didn't have help. Derrick Brooks is a 10-time Pro Bowl selection that was drafted in the same draft class. John Lynch, Warrick Dunn, Mike Alstott, and Ronde Barber all played big roles. Tony Dungy was hired in 1996 and while they didn’t win a Super Bowl with Dungy as head coach, that WAS Dungy's team that won the Super Bowl in 2002, NOT Gruden's. No team wins because of one player and Sapp played as big of a role as any player the Bucs had.

The name of the game in Tampa was defense. The Bucs finished in the top 10 in both points and yards allowed every year from 1997 to 2003. Brooks was the best player on the defense, but Sapp was the emotional leader of the Bucs. When the Bucs couldn’t beat the Packers, it was Sapp that got into Favre’s face and let him know there was going to be a new contender in the NFC.

While the Bucs have had some good defenses since Sapp left, they haven’t been nearly as intimidating since Sapp went to Oakland. In fact, they were downright awful in 2005, finishing 21st in points allowed and 17th in yards allowed. Even last year they ranked 17th in rushing yards allowed. That never happened when Sapp was there. The Bucs were mainstays in the top 10 rushing defenses with Sapp anchoring the middle of the defensive line for many years.Sapp’s Oakland stint was uneventful and his Oakland teams were pitiful. That made people forget how dominant Sapp was in Tampa Bay. Sapp made seven Pro Bowls, all consecutively from 1997 to 2003. He was All-Pro first team four times. He was the NFL’s Defensive Player of the Year in 1999 when he recorded 12.5 sacks.

That wasn’t even his best season as he recorded 16.5 the following year. Had it not been for Ray Lewis’s monster 2000 season, Sapp very well could have repeated. His 96.5 career sacks rank 28th in NFL history (NFL started keeping track in 1982).

The only defensive tackles that are comparable to him in terms of sacks are John Randle, Henry Thomas, and Robert Porcher. Porcher and Randle split time at defensive end and none of those three was as dominant as Sapp against the run. Most of the guys that put up big sack numbers are outside linebackers and defensive ends. He did it at defensive tackle. To put that in perspective, Jamal Williams was the NFL All-Pro defensive tackle in 2005 and 2006. He has recorded 11.5 sacks in his 10 seasons there. Sapp was an all time great defensive tackle and a rare blend of run stopping and pass rushing. He absolutely deserves to go into Canton in 2013.

Jonathan Ogden- Just a fantastic offensive tackle. Someone Ruuudiiiii forgot to put in this debate was Larry Allen, who we also lost to retirement this offseason who is also HOF caliber, Like Allen, Ogden was an 11-time Pro Bowl selection and was first team All-Pro four times. The difference is that Allen played on an offense that had Hall of Famers Michael Irvin and Troy Aikman, and future Hall of Famer Emmitt Smith. Nate Newton was a six-time Pro Bowler. Jay Novacek was a five- time Pro Bowler. Erik Williams was a four-time Pro Bowler. Darryl Johnston was a two- time Pro Bowler. That offense was stacked.

Jonathan Ogden played on good teams. He was drafted in the same draft class as Ray Lewis. That is a nice first round. But he was often the only Pro Bowler on his offense. He never played with a great quarterback. Jamal Lewis had some good years with the Ravens, including his 2,066 yard-season in 2003. That was Jamal Lewis’s only Pro Bowl season in Baltimore.

Offensive linemen are usually dependent on their offense for them to earn recognition for their talents. The fact that he was able to make 11 Pro Bowls playing tackle for an offense that finished in the top 10 scoring offenses on just two occasions in his 12 seasons is nothing short of amazing. Equally amazing is that there was rarely any controversy that he was selected. He was one of the best offensive tackles in the NFL and everyone was on board with that. He is deserving of going into the Hall of Fame in 2013, and will be there no doubt.

Junior Seau- If this was 2006, when he first retired; He would undoubtedly be a lock to be inducted into the Pro Football Hall of Fame. Hell, he is at the moment in the San Diego Chargers Hall of Fame. I feel as if he left when he was supposed to in 2006, he would be a shoe-in, but I believe his chances now, might have been hurt by lingering around too long and being basically a non-factor on the Dolphins and the Pats.

Junior was the team leader and the heart and soul of the Chargers’ defense from 1990-2002. A career that included 12 consecutive Pro Bowl berths, the most by any player in Chargers history and tied for the third-longest streak ever.

Seau’s career statistics with the Chargers are beyond question. He appeared in 230 regular season games, including a team-record 200 in San Diego. This total ranks sixth in NFL history among players whose primary position was linebacker. During his 13 seasons in San Diego, he racked up 1,396 tackles, 45.5 sacks and 14 interceptions. He was the team leader in tackles in eight of his 13 seasons, averaging 116 tackles a year. Junior led the Bolts in tackles in 84 of the 200 games he played for the Chargers and has recorded 10 or more tackles 47 times.

Among his many honors, Seau was named the Chargers’ Most Valuable Player a team-record six times (1993, 1997-2001) and the Defensive Player of the Year twice (1998-99). He also was voted the Chargers’ Most Inspirational Player in 1997 and 2002. In 1994, he led the Chargers to Super Bowl XXIX against the San Francisco 49ers and was selected as the NFL Man of the Year for his leadership and contributions off the field.

He has been a first-team All-Pro pick by the Associated Press six times during his career and was a second-team selection 2 other times. While in Miami, he received the Don Shula Leadership Award in 2004.

All of these are great accomplishments, but in my opinion the fact he did stick around past his prime too much, did the retirement, oops maybe not dance and such buts him on the bubble in my book.


Orlando Pace- Yes, I have an affinity for linemen, I was a D-linemen and in high school was an O-Lineman as well, I have said this a hundred times on this board, and I will say it again, without a doubt in my mind I would say that the offensive lineman is the smartest guy on the field. They are also in this day's game the most valued player and the hardest to find, so tak that into consideration when I say and believe the following....Pace is a future Hall of Famer, one of the best linemen of his generation. He was the first offensive lineman in 29 years to be drafted first overall, and he has not disappointed. Pace has been voted to seven consecutive Pro Bowls dating back to the 1999 season, his third season in the league. Pace's blocking assisted the Rams to a championship win in Super Bowl XXXIV and a championship appearance in Super Bowl XXXVI.

Jason Taylor- If the media wants to already enshrine Michael Strahan into the Hall of Fame, then they better be making some room already for Jason Taylor as well. Taylor, despite playing in 4 fewer seasons, has better numbers than Strahan in all but 3 categories. However, if you compare single season averages, you'll notice that Taylor averages more tackles per season (59.5 to 57) and more sacks (10.6 to 9.4) than Strahan, and just narrowly trails Strahan in tackles for loss per season (5.6 to 5.4).

Also note that both players have reached double-digit sacks in 6 seasons.

Another thing to look at are the various accolades each player has received. Both have won Defensive Player of the Year awards. Strahan is a 7 time pro-bowler and 4 time All-Pro while Taylor is a 6 time pro-bowler and 3 time All-Pro. Very close, but Strahan has the edge there.

And, of course, Michael Strahan has a Super Bowl ring while Jason Taylor obviously does not. But to count the lack of a ring against Taylor is unfair (unfortunately thi sis the typiclal Dolphins defense i.e. Marino, but it is true). Football is the ultimate team sport. It's not his fault that his supporting cast was never that good. So it's completely ignorant to say that Strahan is a Hall of Fame player while Taylor is not just because Michael has a ring.

Another way to look at Taylor's Hall of Fame credentials is by examining his place in history. And as it stands now, Taylor ranks 14th on the all-time career sacks list. Strahan, meanwhile, comes in at #5. And since it's likely Taylor will play in 2008 (I won'y ever say it's guaranteed, but it's likely), Jason will likely rise close to the top 10 (10 sacks in '08 would move JT up to 11th). And if Taylor were to play 3 more seasons (including '08), he'd have a very real opportunity to move ahead of Strahan, and to do it in one less season. All Taylor would have to do is average 8 sacks per season over 3 seasons to pull a half of a sack away from Strahan for 5th all-time. But since in this scenario he retires NOW, he still gets in First ballot.


If 2007 taught us anything.....If Chris Carter can’t get in on his first ballot with the exception of Favre no one on this list is a guarantee in 2013, but the one that is LEAST likely is Junior, especially if you consider that the NFL allows a minimum of four and a maximum of seven (was three and six until this year) people to be inducted into the Hall of Fame each year and it is going to be tough for other players to make it in 2013. Plus, this list is only for first-year eligible players. It doesn’t include the list of deserving players that haven’t made the Hall yet. not to mention other on the bubble talent like Steve McNair retiring this year and other shoe ins like the before mentioned Larry Allen.

[Lor2435]

Junior Seau is the odd man out here. He should have retired after he was done in Miami but has hung on as a Patriot in a misguided attempt to get a ring and it hasn't worked out. He hasn't played at a probowl level since 2000 and has lived off his reputation since then. His numbers were very good for nearly a decade, but every other guy on this list is a franchise player while Seau is more of a piece.

[J_Ray]

Out of all the candidates, I'm going to have to say Jason Taylor is the least likely to get into the Hall of Fame. All the other guys have gotten or at least gone to the Super Bowl on memorable teams, while Jason Taylor has never been part of something real special. Then he's going to retire football at somewhat of a young age to go act, showing he really doesn't have the love or respect for the game as much as the other guys. The voters will look at this kind of stuff, and they see who deserves it more.

[ruuuuudiii]

Alright guys, go crazy.

You'll probably have until Tuesday to debate, then get you closes in after that.

[Lor2435]

Originally Posted by Wolverine

The test I like to do is go through real quick and if I pause at a name.. It usually means they aren't a hall of famer..

I didn't pause at anyone like Favre or Sapp..

The one guy I did pause for was Orlando Pace..

Since there is another LT in the group.. Jonathan Ogden, take a look at the comparison.

Ogden has made as many Pro-Bowls as Pace has played seasons... 10

Pace has played 10 years, Ogden 11, yet Pace is 36 games behind Ogden in terms of starts.

Ogden is the gold standard. He is a sure fire hall of famer.. Pace is a really good tackle and all, but he hasn't been the rock Ogden was for 10 straight years.

Pace's last two years have really put a mark on his career as a great tackle. It's extremely hard to make the hall as an offensive lineman, and in my opinion if you don't have the rock solid career that Ogden had or at least close to it by starting a lot of games and going to a lot of Pro-Bowls.. You are not a hall of famer.

Take recent HOFers into account as well..

Is he as good as Gary Zimmerman?

Gene Hickerson?

I don't think so...

I leave out Orlando Pace..

and uh.. No New Taxes!

I don't think that Jonathan Ogden's last few years have been any better or worse than Pace's have. They've both been injured on teams with declining skill sets and have made pro-bowls based solely on reputation.

But how do you judge the effectiveness of a LT? Sacks given up? That doesn't really apply to either guy as i would say neither guy ever gave up more than 5 in their primes (good luck finding these stats! i've looked all over for OL stats!) Is it rushing games? Both blocked for league leading rushers in Marshal Faulk and Jamal Lewis. Is it overall offensive production? Pace blocked for a better offense to be sure, but the Ravens had better talent along the line. I would say these two tackles are a wash.

Also both of these tackles have won super bowls, something Taylor and Seau have yet to accomplish... Hall voters will take that into account.

Originally Posted by Azazel

What has happened this NFL offseason? I cannot remember a season where the NFL had so many huge talent guys leave at the same time. In 1999 Steve Young and Dan Marino retired at the same time. Barry Sanders and John Elway both retired after the 1998 NFL season. There are plenty of instances where the bigstars have retired in the same year, But I cannot think of a year like this. The only fair way is to go through each player and see why they would deserve going to the hall, so lets begin....


Brett Favre- Will he make it in?

Will the sun rise in the East tomorrow?

Will you ever have to pay taxes again?

Will gas prices go up this summer?

Will the year 2009 come after the year 2008?

Will Soel look ravishing in a set of red heels?

Will we all die someday?

The answer to all is a "yes" there really isn't a bigger shoe-in on the list, there isn't even a need to go through how the man is #1 in almost every category...lets not waste time her......on to Gappy.

Michael Strahan- Unfortunately for people like myself who are not a fan of this guy, he is a must for Canton in 2013. (and when he gets in he better thank Jon Runyon for single handedly making him a pro-bowler all those years.) He recorded the most sacks in a single 16 game season with 22.5 (even if the other hall of famer on this list GAVE it to him, and he didn't EARN it, he still owns the record.) . His 141.5 career sacks ranks fifth on the NFL’s all-time list. He is a seven-time Pro Bowler and four time NFL All-Pro first- teamer. He played in two Super Bowls, with his team going 1-1.

He was good at stopping the run and great at rushing the passer. The Giants had the Reeves, Fassell, and Coughlin eras in New York. The Giants made the playoffs under all three coaches. Fassell’s team lost to the Ravens in the Super Bowl and Coughlin’s Giants won it last year.

The New York Giants had many good players over the years. Tiki Barber was a great runner. Kerry Collins had some good years before Eli Manning arrived. Jessie Armstead was his sidekick on defense earlier in his career, and later in his career the entire defensive line became the strength of the team. The one constant the team has had from 1993 to 2007 has been Michael Strahan. He is the one that kept this team together through good times and bad. When Barber and Coughlin were disagreeing, Shockey was mad about the offense, and when Burress wanted the ball more, it was Strahan that made sure the team wasn’t ripped apart beyond repair. He was the team leader that seemed to settle this team down when things were at their worst.

I’m not sure they get over their 0-2 start without him in 2007. It was his desire and effort that led the Giants through their historic Super Bowl run in 2007. Eli Manning and a lot of other players played well, but they don’t win that ring without Strahan leading the defense.


Warren Sapp- So far this is the toughest sell. I do not like him personally, I believe he is a pompus arrogant overrated ass. but I believe he deserves first ballot induction. Here is how bad things were before Sapp arrived in Tampa Bay. Tampa Bay had lost 10 games or more, 12 seasons in a row. They hadn’t made the playoffs since 1982, which was a strike-shortened season. The year 1981 marked their last playoff season. It was one of the worst franchises in the NFL and a death sentence to anyone drafted there. In his first season Tampa Bay broke that string finishing 7-9.

It's not that Sapp didn't have help. Derrick Brooks is a 10-time Pro Bowl selection that was drafted in the same draft class. John Lynch, Warrick Dunn, Mike Alstott, and Ronde Barber all played big roles. Tony Dungy was hired in 1996 and while they didn’t win a Super Bowl with Dungy as head coach, that WAS Dungy's team that won the Super Bowl in 2002, NOT Gruden's. No team wins because of one player and Sapp played as big of a role as any player the Bucs had.

The name of the game in Tampa was defense. The Bucs finished in the top 10 in both points and yards allowed every year from 1997 to 2003. Brooks was the best player on the defense, but Sapp was the emotional leader of the Bucs. When the Bucs couldn’t beat the Packers, it was Sapp that got into Favre’s face and let him know there was going to be a new contender in the NFC.

While the Bucs have had some good defenses since Sapp left, they haven’t been nearly as intimidating since Sapp went to Oakland. In fact, they were downright awful in 2005, finishing 21st in points allowed and 17th in yards allowed. Even last year they ranked 17th in rushing yards allowed. That never happened when Sapp was there. The Bucs were mainstays in the top 10 rushing defenses with Sapp anchoring the middle of the defensive line for many years.Sapp’s Oakland stint was uneventful and his Oakland teams were pitiful. That made people forget how dominant Sapp was in Tampa Bay. Sapp made seven Pro Bowls, all consecutively from 1997 to 2003. He was All-Pro first team four times. He was the NFL’s Defensive Player of the Year in 1999 when he recorded 12.5 sacks.

That wasn’t even his best season as he recorded 16.5 the following year. Had it not been for Ray Lewis’s monster 2000 season, Sapp very well could have repeated. His 96.5 career sacks rank 28th in NFL history (NFL started keeping track in 1982).

The only defensive tackles that are comparable to him in terms of sacks are John Randle, Henry Thomas, and Robert Porcher. Porcher and Randle split time at defensive end and none of those three was as dominant as Sapp against the run. Most of the guys that put up big sack numbers are outside linebackers and defensive ends. He did it at defensive tackle. To put that in perspective, Jamal Williams was the NFL All-Pro defensive tackle in 2005 and 2006. He has recorded 11.5 sacks in his 10 seasons there. Sapp was an all time great defensive tackle and a rare blend of run stopping and pass rushing. He absolutely deserves to go into Canton in 2013.

Jonathan Ogden- Just a fantastic offensive tackle. Someone Ruuudiiiii forgot to put in this debate was Larry Allen, who we also lost to retirement this offseason who is also HOF caliber, Like Allen, Ogden was an 11-time Pro Bowl selection and was first team All-Pro four times. The difference is that Allen played on an offense that had Hall of Famers Michael Irvin and Troy Aikman, and future Hall of Famer Emmitt Smith. Nate Newton was a six-time Pro Bowler. Jay Novacek was a five- time Pro Bowler. Erik Williams was a four-time Pro Bowler. Darryl Johnston was a two- time Pro Bowler. That offense was stacked.

Jonathan Ogden played on good teams. He was drafted in the same draft class as Ray Lewis. That is a nice first round. But he was often the only Pro Bowler on his offense. He never played with a great quarterback. Jamal Lewis had some good years with the Ravens, including his 2,066 yard-season in 2003. That was Jamal Lewis’s only Pro Bowl season in Baltimore.

Offensive linemen are usually dependent on their offense for them to earn recognition for their talents. The fact that he was able to make 11 Pro Bowls playing tackle for an offense that finished in the top 10 scoring offenses on just two occasions in his 12 seasons is nothing short of amazing. Equally amazing is that there was rarely any controversy that he was selected. He was one of the best offensive tackles in the NFL and everyone was on board with that. He is deserving of going into the Hall of Fame in 2013, and will be there no doubt.

Junior Seau- If this was 2006, when he first retired; He would undoubtedly be a lock to be inducted into the Pro Football Hall of Fame. Hell, he is at the moment in the San Diego Chargers Hall of Fame. I feel as if he left when he was supposed to in 2006, he would be a shoe-in, but I believe his chances now, might have been hurt by lingering around too long and being basically a non-factor on the Dolphins and the Pats.

Junior was the team leader and the heart and soul of the Chargers’ defense from 1990-2002. A career that included 12 consecutive Pro Bowl berths, the most by any player in Chargers history and tied for the third-longest streak ever.

Seau’s career statistics with the Chargers are beyond question. He appeared in 230 regular season games, including a team-record 200 in San Diego. This total ranks sixth in NFL history among players whose primary position was linebacker. During his 13 seasons in San Diego, he racked up 1,396 tackles, 45.5 sacks and 14 interceptions. He was the team leader in tackles in eight of his 13 seasons, averaging 116 tackles a year. Junior led the Bolts in tackles in 84 of the 200 games he played for the Chargers and has recorded 10 or more tackles 47 times.

Among his many honors, Seau was named the Chargers’ Most Valuable Player a team-record six times (1993, 1997-2001) and the Defensive Player of the Year twice (1998-99). He also was voted the Chargers’ Most Inspirational Player in 1997 and 2002. In 1994, he led the Chargers to Super Bowl XXIX against the San Francisco 49ers and was selected as the NFL Man of the Year for his leadership and contributions off the field.

He has been a first-team All-Pro pick by the Associated Press six times during his career and was a second-team selection 2 other times. While in Miami, he received the Don Shula Leadership Award in 2004.

All of these are great accomplishments, but in my opinion the fact he did stick around past his prime too much, did the retirement, oops maybe not dance and such buts him on the bubble in my book.


Orlando Pace- Yes, I have an affinity for linemen, I was a D-linemen and in high school was an O-Lineman as well, I have said this a hundred times on this board, and I will say it again, without a doubt in my mind I would say that the offensive lineman is the smartest guy on the field. They are also in this day's game the most valued player and the hardest to find, so tak that into consideration when I say and believe the following....Pace is a future Hall of Famer, one of the best linemen of his generation. He was the first offensive lineman in 29 years to be drafted first overall, and he has not disappointed. Pace has been voted to seven consecutive Pro Bowls dating back to the 1999 season, his third season in the league. Pace's blocking assisted the Rams to a championship win in Super Bowl XXXIV and a championship appearance in Super Bowl XXXVI.

Jason Taylor- If the media wants to already enshrine Michael Strahan into the Hall of Fame, then they better be making some room already for Jason Taylor as well. Taylor, despite playing in 4 fewer seasons, has better numbers than Strahan in all but 3 categories. However, if you compare single season averages, you'll notice that Taylor averages more tackles per season (59.5 to 57) and more sacks (10.6 to 9.4) than Strahan, and just narrowly trails Strahan in tackles for loss per season (5.6 to 5.4).

Also note that both players have reached double-digit sacks in 6 seasons.

Another thing to look at are the various accolades each player has received. Both have won Defensive Player of the Year awards. Strahan is a 7 time pro-bowler and 4 time All-Pro while Taylor is a 6 time pro-bowler and 3 time All-Pro. Very close, but Strahan has the edge there.

And, of course, Michael Strahan has a Super Bowl ring while Jason Taylor obviously does not. But to count the lack of a ring against Taylor is unfair (unfortunately thi sis the typiclal Dolphins defense i.e. Marino, but it is true). Football is the ultimate team sport. It's not his fault that his supporting cast was never that good. So it's completely ignorant to say that Strahan is a Hall of Fame player while Taylor is not just because Michael has a ring.

Another way to look at Taylor's Hall of Fame credentials is by examining his place in history. And as it stands now, Taylor ranks 14th on the all-time career sacks list. Strahan, meanwhile, comes in at #5. And since it's likely Taylor will play in 2008 (I won'y ever say it's guaranteed, but it's likely), Jason will likely rise close to the top 10 (10 sacks in '08 would move JT up to 11th). And if Taylor were to play 3 more seasons (including '08), he'd have a very real opportunity to move ahead of Strahan, and to do it in one less season. All Taylor would have to do is average 8 sacks per season over 3 seasons to pull a half of a sack away from Strahan for 5th all-time. But since in this scenario he retires NOW, he still gets in First ballot.


If 2007 taught us anything.....If Chris Carter can’t get in on his first ballot with the exception of Favre no one on this list is a guarantee in 2013, but the one that is LEAST likely is Junior, especially if you consider that the NFL allows a minimum of four and a maximum of seven (was three and six until this year) people to be inducted into the Hall of Fame each year and it is going to be tough for other players to make it in 2013. Plus, this list is only for first-year eligible players. It doesn’t include the list of deserving players that haven’t made the Hall yet. not to mention other on the bubble talent like Steve McNair retiring this year and other shoe ins like the before mentioned Larry Allen.

I think this is a generally fair assessment of the players listed here and i agree that Seau is the least likely to be inducted but i would say the gap is wider than "least likely". If Junior Seau made it and Orlando Pace or Jason Taylor didn't i would be pissed. Seau is the epitome of a very good player, but just isn't an all time type of guy. Jason Taylor has been defensive player of the year and is the type of player to base a defense on while Seau is a very good piece to add to a defense... Seau is more Keith Bullocks than Lawrence Taylor.

Originally Posted by J_Ray

Out of all the candidates, I'm going to have to say Jason Taylor is the least likely to get into the Hall of Fame. All the other guys have gotten or at least gone to the Super Bowl on memorable teams, while Jason Taylor has never been part of something real special. Then he's going to retire football at somewhat of a young age to go act, showing he really doesn't have the love or respect for the game as much as the other guys. The voters will look at this kind of stuff, and they see who deserves it more.

Taylor won't really be retiring early... he'll be 36 when his contract expires and that's a more than reasonable age to retire. As for his perceived lack of passion, i would say that is more ESPN hype than fact. It takes a lot of passion to become defensive player of the year on one of the worst teams in the league....

[J_Ray]

Originally Posted by LOR2435

Taylor won't really be retiring early... he'll be 36 when his contract expires and that's a more than reasonable age to retire. As for his perceived lack of passion, i would say that is more ESPN hype than fact. It takes a lot of passion to become defensive player of the year on one of the worst teams in the league....

Taylor announced this is his last season of football and he wants to pursue a career in acting. By the end of the season, he'll be 34 years old. While all the others are older in age. Strahan has been playing 15 years, started the NFL @ a younger age, and played 4-5 more seasons than Taylor, while also acquiring the elusive SB Ring. Also, Strahan will always be remembered for his Giants upsetting the undefeated Patriots, being a huge underdog. He was the leader of that monster defense that held down the Pats, and won the SB. Even though the stats are eerily similar, the HoF voters are going to lean towards players that left a legacy.

[ruuuuudiii]

You guys have about 24 hours to get your closing statements in.

[Lor2435]

Originally Posted by J_Ray

Taylor announced this is his last season of football and he wants to pursue a career in acting. By the end of the season, he'll be 34 years old. While all the others are older in age. Strahan has been playing 15 years, started the NFL @ a younger age, and played 4-5 more seasons than Taylor, while also acquiring the elusive SB Ring. Also, Strahan will always be remembered for his Giants upsetting the undefeated Patriots, being a huge underdog. He was the leader of that monster defense that held down the Pats, and won the SB. Even though the stats are eerily similar, the HoF voters are going to lean towards players that left a legacy.

Taylor, as far as i know, said that he was considering retiring this year but stated that he will play no matter what this year, i've found nothing about him talking about next season.

You're exactly right that the hall will lean towards players that have left a legacy... and what is Seau's legacy? Its that he held on too long trying to get a ring and failed.

And let's not forget that Seau and Taylor played on the same defense and there was no question that it was Taylor's defense, not Seau's.