Debate Game: Round 1, Group 3

[ruuuuudiii]

Alright everyone, welcome to the show.

I hope everyone here has read the rules.

This debate is for the 4 members of Group One ONLY, there will be no posts accepted by anyone else. Once the debate has ended and the poll has closed, the topic becomes open to everyone.

Here are the 4 contestants ...

Group Three:
LOR2435
drews69chevelle_08
J_Ray
MiddleLB40

Remember, the point of this game is to prove who has the best debating skills. You not only have to focus on proving your point, but also on debunking the views of the opponent. Judging should be based on who debated the best, not necessarily who you agree with the most.


Here is your topic: (Presented by Azazel)

During the off-season, several teams went to look into a new direction, and hired new head coaches. The Baltimore Ravens hired John Harbaugh, Atlanta went with Mike Smith, in Miami the new play-caller is Tony Sparano, while the Redskins decided to replace their Hall of Famer with Jim Zorn.

The question is, which of these coaches will ultimately have the best tenure as a head coach? I am not asking who has the best 2008 season, I'm asking who will have the best career.

Contestants, remember. You now have 24 hours to present your opening statement. There will be no debating until either everyone has presented their opening statement, or the 24 hours has elapsed.

And.............................go!

[J_Ray]

The coach that I believe will have the most successful career is Mike Smith of the Atlanta Falcons. The main reason behind my great theory is that we've seen numerous defensive coordinators become great coaches with Marvin Lewis, John Fox, Jack Del Rio, Lovie Smith, Romeo Crennel, Brian Belichick, etc. You haven't seen that many defensive back coaches, Offensive line coaches, or even Quarterback coaches be successful coaches. Usually those kind of guys are fighting for offensive or defensive coordinator positions rather than being a head coach. I don't expect Atlanta to become successful right away since they're obviously rebuilding after the Mike Vick Saga but it took all these other coaches 2-3 years to build their football teams into a team to reckon with. Atlanta just picked a franchise QB that they will also have to groom and wait to develop into (hopefully) the face of the franchise. In a weaker division like the NFC South, Mike Smith should have a bright future ahead of him with Matt Ryan and Michael Turner on the offensive side, while he grooms his defense to his liking....after all, he did mentor guys like Ray Lewis, Adalius Thomas, Jamie Sharper, and Peter Boulware. As the saying goes, "Defense Wins Championships".

[Lor2435]

Wow i can't believe i just did that. I had the longest response written, breaking down why each coach would fail, and i was going to pick none. But when i got to Tony Sparano i couldn't rationalize it entirely.

First, let's not kid ourselves, Sparano is a patsy for Parcells and it's that point that really got to me. He's a yes man and he'll be the coach as long as Parcells is the GM... and i find it tough to bet against Bill Parcells.

This team has a ton of holes no doubt, but Bill Parcells can rebuild a team in his sleep. He's started to bring in his guys, he's overturning the roster quickly and he's building this team from the lines out. Jake Long is a monster in run blocking and if he can come back healthy Ronnie Brown is one of the best runners in the league... he was leading the league before he got hurt. The QB position hasn't been solidified, but Josh McCown should be able to hold down the starting spot till Beck or Henne have developed enough. Teddy Ginn looked better at the end of last season, but he really needs a talented big body opposite him... and ideally Ginn would play in the slot. At TE Fasano was part of a great trade for the Dolphins....

On defense things look less promising, but this is where Parcells excels. The Jason Taylor situation will work itself out and he's still on the roster come week 1 won't be a distraction and he'll play out his contract. I look for more 3-4 fronts and that should allow Joey Porter to return to rushing the passer more often. The dline needs to be rebuilt, Matt Roth was a good addition, and the secondary needs an overhaul.

And unlike the Falcons who are sending mixed messages with their moves, the Dolphins have made it clear they have direction. They draft the best o-lineman #!, the hire an offensive line guy, and they are going to pound the run with their most talented player. The D needs a little help, but you can't fix everything at once.

[drews69chevelle_08]

Call me crazy for going NFC East on this one, but Jim Zornhas the best shot at this one.

Let's check out the defense first. The Redskins secondary is very good. They have Shawn Springs, LaRon Landry, and Fred Smoot standing back ther to lock things down. London Fletcher holds down the middle of the field at linebacker, and Cornelius Griffin has some decentplayers around him on the D-Line. The defense is good and should hold strong for a long time.

Now for the Offense. Jason Campbell is coming around and definitely has the starting position in Washington. He is only getting better the longer he plays. Chris Cooley is a very good tight end and is always making plays, as are Santana Moss and Antwaan Randle El. Their offensive line definitely could use a little bit of work, but that is really the only weakness personnel-wise that this team has.

Jim Zorn has been blessed in my opinion. The defense and offense has fallen into his lap, and he doesn't have to rebuild a team as do two of the other three. (The Ravens have a good defense, but their offense is abysmal.)

He has all the pieces to put the puzzle together in Washington. Although it is a tough division, the Redskins will be VERY tough in the next 2-3 years.

[J_Ray]

Originally Posted by LOR2435

Wow i can't believe i just did that. I had the longest response written, breaking down why each coach would fail, and i was going to pick none. But when i got to Tony Sparano i couldn't rationalize it entirely.

First, let's not kid ourselves, Sparano is a patsy for Parcells and it's that point that really got to me. He's a yes man and he'll be the coach as long as Parcells is the GM... and i find it tough to bet against Bill Parcells.

This team has a ton of holes no doubt, but Bill Parcells can rebuild a team in his sleep. He's started to bring in his guys, he's overturning the roster quickly and he's building this team from the lines out. Jake Long is a monster in run blocking and if he can come back healthy Ronnie Brown is one of the best runners in the league... he was leading the league before he got hurt. The QB position hasn't been solidified, but Josh McCown should be able to hold down the starting spot till Beck or Henne have developed enough. Teddy Ginn looked better at the end of last season, but he really needs a talented big body opposite him... and ideally Ginn would play in the slot. At TE Fasano was part of a great trade for the Dolphins....

On defense things look less promising, but this is where Parcells excels. The Jason Taylor situation will work itself out and he's still on the roster come week 1 won't be a distraction and he'll play out his contract. I look for more 3-4 fronts and that should allow Joey Porter to return to rushing the passer more often. The dline needs to be rebuilt, Matt Roth was a good addition, and the secondary needs an overhaul.

And unlike the Falcons who are sending mixed messages with their moves, the Dolphins have made it clear they have direction. They draft the best o-lineman #!, the hire an offensive line guy, and they are going to pound the run with their most talented player. The D needs a little help, but you can't fix everything at once.

Just the fact he's an O-Line Coordinator from Parcell's old regime doesn't mean he'll be successful. The Dolphins had the worst team in the NFL this year and didn't really do anything drastic past taking Long, to help this team. They're obviously still in rebuilding mode just like Atlanta Falcons, except the fact they don't have a franchise QB like the Falcons just drafted. So unlike you said, the Falcons have sent a message that they're moving on from the Mike Vick Saga and moving forward. Falcons took the top QB in the draft while the Dolphins took the top O-Lineman.....last time I checked, it's usually the QB that is more important to a franchise's success. The Dolphins have drafted 2 of the secondary QB prospects in the last 2 drafts, and neither really look like they have the tools of a Tom Brady, Brett Favre, Matt Hasselbeck, or Peyton Manning, they look more like a David Garrard if they can even develop. Matt Ryan in college didn't have the top receivers like Henne, yet Ryan led his team to several wins. His ability to spread the ball around is similar to Tom Brady or Matt Hasselbeck, where he doesn't really need 1 dominant WR to be effective. So the Falcons have sent a message in what direction they're heading, while the Dolphins are the one that really are kinda in neutral since they didn't add any real presence to the positions that win games. Ronnie Brown is also coming off an ACL injury, and most running backs lose their explosiveness from these injuries. Last time I checked too, Josh McCown is NOTHING special, trust me, he won't hold any fort down when your playing the Pats So the Dolphins still got tons of rebuilding to do, especially when arguable the face of the franchise, Jason Taylor, might be moved soon.

Originally Posted by drews69chevelle_08

Call me crazy for going NFC East on this one, but Jim Zornhas the best shot at this one.

Let's check out the defense first. The Redskins secondary is very good. They have Shawn Springs, LaRon Landry, and Fred Smoot standing back there to lock things down. London Fletcher holds down the middle of the field at linebacker, and Cornelius Griffin has some decent players around him on the D-Line. The defense is good and should hold strong for a long time.

Now for the Offense. Jason Campbell is coming around and definitely has the starting position in Washington. He is only getting better the longer he plays. Chris Cooley is a very good tight end and is always making plays, as are Santana Moss and Antwaan Randle El. Their offensive line definitely could use a little bit of work, but that is really the only weakness personnel-wise that this team has.

Jim Zorn has been blessed in my opinion. The defense and offense has fallen into his lap, and he doesn't have to rebuild a team as do two of the other three. (The Ravens have a good defense, but their offense is abysmal.)

He has all the pieces to put the puzzle together in Washington. Although it is a tough division, the Redskins will be VERY tough in the next 2-3 years.

The Redskins Defense is built to win now, while the offense is very injury prone. That doesn't help much when you have to play 6 games against the toughest division in the NFC that includes the SB champs, the NFC's team with the best record, and a Eagles team that reached the NFC Championship numerous times in recent history. The defense is up to par right now, but their window isn't that big as you would like to think. The great secondary you mentioned consists of the youngster LaRon Landry, then a 29 year old Smoot and a 33 year old Springs. I give Smoot only a few more years if he isn't declining already and Springs is already on the decline. London Fletcher also is 33 years old, and he won't be able to hold down the middle by himself with the D-Line the Skins got. The Redskins also lost 2 of the great leaders from their successful defense last year, when they tragically lost Sean Taylor in that horrible shooting, and Gregg Williams, the Mastermind Schemist behind it all.

Another factor I already brought up is how injury prone their offense has been the last 2 years. Clinton Portis, the prized RB, has had difficulties staying on the field. He's the home run hitter in the running game that they need if they're going to win. The thing that would worry me is that their franchise QB tore his ACL last year down the stretch of the season and it takes at least 10 months to heal up and rehabilitate from those injuries. Will they let him sit out training camp to heal or will they try to bring him back too early possibly risking another injury? I know this team is built to win now but Jim Zorn doesn't have enough head coaching experience to help them fulfill their potential IMO. So by the time he's got enough experience, it might be too late for this team he has now and they'll have to reload the arsenal again.





While Sparano has Parcells build him a team that is Parcell's players, and Zorn is handed someone else's team, Mike Smith gets to build his own team with players he likes. He's the same guy that has made the Ravens D so intimidating, and the one that put a "ROAR!" into the Jacksonville D. So he should have no problem building up the Atlanta defense into a powerhouse, since defense wins championships. The offense will soon follow with the additions of Matt Ryan and Michael Turner this off-season. For a coach to succeed, it's important for him to be able to get players he can work with, and the other 2 guys haven't had as much control as Mike Smith has gotten. He's the guy that developed so many great players like Ray Lewis, Rashean Mathis, Henderson/Stroud duo, and the plethora of LB's in Baltimore. I believe that Smith will be the most successful out of all the coaches.

[Lor2435]

Originally Posted by J_Ray

The coach that I believe will have the most successful career is Mike Smith of the Atlanta Falcons. The main reason behind my great theory is that we've seen numerous defensive coordinators become great coaches with Marvin Lewis, John Fox, Jack Del Rio, Lovie Smith, Romeo Crennel, Brian Belichick, etc. You haven't seen that many defensive back coaches, Offensive line coaches, or even Quarterback coaches be successful coaches. Usually those kind of guys are fighting for offensive or defensive coordinator positions rather than being a head coach. I don't expect Atlanta to become successful right away since they're obviously rebuilding after the Mike Vick Saga but it took all these other coaches 2-3 years to build their football teams into a team to reckon with. Atlanta just picked a franchise QB that they will also have to groom and wait to develop into (hopefully) the face of the franchise. In a weaker division like the NFC South, Mike Smith should have a bright future ahead of him with Matt Ryan and Michael Turner on the offensive side, while he grooms his defense to his liking....after all, he did mentor guys like Ray Lewis, Adalius Thomas, Jamie Sharper, and Peter Boulware. As the saying goes, "Defense Wins Championships".

The Falcons are rebuilding their team incorrectly. They hire a defensive coach but they draft a QB instead of the #1 defensive player? Matt Ryan was the wrong pick and is destined to fail for a few reasons and Mike Smith's destiny is tied with the success of Matt Ryan. First, Ryan going to start from game one because the rest of the QB's on this team are terrible. Second, he's got no real targets. Roddy White looked promising last season, but that's it... let's not forget they lost Alge Crumpler. And lastly, he has absolutely no offensive line. How is Matt Ryan expected to succeed with no targets, no experience and no offensive line?

The Falcons should have drafted Glenn Dorsey. That pick would have shown a commitment to rebuilding the D and relying on a potentially good running game. Dorsey would give the D a presence that they currently lack. Dorsey also would have maximized the pick of Jamaal Anderson from last years draft who is currently the only talented player on the defensive line.

Originally Posted by drews69chevelle_08

Call me crazy for going NFC East on this one, but Jim Zornhas the best shot at this one.

Let's check out the defense first. The Redskins secondary is very good. They have Shawn Springs, LaRon Landry, and Fred Smoot standing back ther to lock things down. London Fletcher holds down the middle of the field at linebacker, and Cornelius Griffin has some decentplayers around him on the D-Line. The defense is good and should hold strong for a long time.

Now for the Offense. Jason Campbell is coming around and definitely has the starting position in Washington. He is only getting better the longer he plays. Chris Cooley is a very good tight end and is always making plays, as are Santana Moss and Antwaan Randle El. Their offensive line definitely could use a little bit of work, but that is really the only weakness personnel-wise that this team has.

Jim Zorn has been blessed in my opinion. The defense and offense has fallen into his lap, and he doesn't have to rebuild a team as do two of the other three. (The Ravens have a good defense, but their offense is abysmal.)

He has all the pieces to put the puzzle together in Washington. Although it is a tough division, the Redskins will be VERY tough in the next 2-3 years.

The Redskins have the same problem the Ravens have... their players are old. Zorn has the best chance of short term success, but his window is 3 years at most. On defense Phillip Daniels (35), Cornelius Griffen (32), London Fletcher (33) and Shawn Springs (33) are all key players that are on the down sides of their careers.

On offense things aren't much better. Clinton Portis will only be 27, but he's going down the path of Shaun Alexander... Chris Samuels (31), Pete Kendall (35), CAsey Rabach (31), Randy Thomas (32), Jon Jansen (32), Mike Sellers (32) and Ladell Betts (29) are all coming to the end of their careers.

Health has always been a problem for this team as well. Campbell is always nursing something, the receivers have ankle problems and the offensive tackles are really banged up as well. McIntosh is also coming off of serious knee surgery and may not be 100%.

Originally Posted by J_Ray

Just the fact he's an O-Line Coordinator from Parcell's old regime doesn't mean he'll be successful. The Dolphins had the worst team in the NFL this year and didn't really do anything drastic past taking Long, to help this team. They're obviously still in rebuilding mode just like Atlanta Falcons, except the fact they don't have a franchise QB like the Falcons just drafted. So unlike you said, the Falcons have sent a message that they're moving on from the Mike Vick Saga and moving forward. Falcons took the top QB in the draft while the Dolphins took the top O-Lineman.....last time I checked, it's usually the QB that is more important to a franchise's success. The Dolphins have drafted 2 of the secondary QB prospects in the last 2 drafts, and neither really look like they have the tools of a Tom Brady, Brett Favre, Matt Hasselbeck, or Peyton Manning, they look more like a David Garrard if they can even develop. Matt Ryan in college didn't have the top receivers like Henne, yet Ryan led his team to several wins. His ability to spread the ball around is similar to Tom Brady or Matt Hasselbeck, where he doesn't really need 1 dominant WR to be effective. So the Falcons have sent a message in what direction they're heading, while the Dolphins are the one that really are kinda in neutral since they didn't add any real presence to the positions that win games. Ronnie Brown is also coming off an ACL injury, and most running backs lose their explosiveness from these injuries. Last time I checked too, Josh McCown is NOTHING special, trust me, he won't hold any fort down when your playing the Pats So the Dolphins still got tons of rebuilding to do, especially when arguable the face of the franchise, Jason Taylor, might be moved soon.

The Dolphins haven't done much outside of Jake Long?! They got Jason Ferguson and Anthony Fasano from Dallas, then they signed Ernest Wilford, Josh McCown (the starting QB while Henne develops), Randy Starks, Justin Smily, and Chris Crocker. The Dolphins may have been the worst team last season, but the cupboards are not bare.

Unlike the Falcons, the Dolphins at least have direction with their moves. The Dolphins hire an offensive line guru and draft the best one #1 overall while the Falcons hire a defensive coach but draft a QB.

[drews69chevelle_08]

Originally Posted by LOR2435

The Falcons are rebuilding their team incorrectly. They hire a defensive coach but they draft a QB instead of the #1 defensive player? Matt Ryan was the wrong pick and is destined to fail for a few reasons and Mike Smith's destiny is tied with the success of Matt Ryan. First, Ryan going to start from game one because the rest of the QB's on this team are terrible. Second, he's got no real targets. Roddy White looked promising last season, but that's it... let's not forget they lost Alge Crumpler. And lastly, he has absolutely no offensive line. How is Matt Ryan expected to succeed with no targets, no experience and no offensive line?

The Falcons should have drafted Glenn Dorsey. That pick would have shown a commitment to rebuilding the D and relying on a potentially good running game. Dorsey would give the D a presence that they currently lack. Dorsey also would have maximized the pick of Jamaal Anderson from last years draft who is currently the only talented player on the defensive line.



The Redskins have the same problem the Ravens have... their players are old. Zorn has the best chance of short term success, but his window is 3 years at most. On defense Phillip Daniels (35), Cornelius Griffen (32), London Fletcher (33) and Shawn Springs (33) are all key players that are on the down sides of their careers.

On offense things aren't much better. Clinton Portis will only be 27, but he's going down the path of Shaun Alexander... Chris Samuels (31), Pete Kendall (35), CAsey Rabach (31), Randy Thomas (32), Jon Jansen (32), Mike Sellers (32) and Ladell Betts (29) are all coming to the end of their careers.

Health has always been a problem for this team as well. Campbell is always nursing something, the receivers have ankle problems and the offensive tackles are really banged up as well. McIntosh is also coming off of serious knee surgery and may not be 100%.

Unlike the Falcons, the Dolphins at least have direction with their moves. The Dolphins hire an offensive line guru and draft the best one #1 overall while the Falcons hire a defensive coach but draft a QB.

First, I agree with LOR, Matt Ryan will turn out like David Carr did, if not worse. David Carr even had a Pro Bowler in his receiving corps, and with no offensive line and minimal experience, was annihilated. Ryan faces the same fate.

As for age and injuries, yes, they are a concern. However, while Smith and Sparano are building teams with players they want, Jim Zorn has an experienced team of veterans that can mold his future draft picks into exactly what they need to be on both sides of the ball. AND they are as you said, built to win now. Sparano has very little experience as far as players, and his most experienced is not on good terms with the team, and is toward the end of his career anyway. It is smart to build a teams from the trenches, that is where the battle is won and lost, but there is not enough time for him to gather the players he needs to be successful and develop them too. The same goes for Smith in Atlanta. Not very much veteran leadership OR playmaking ability.

Originally Posted by J_Ray

Just the fact he's an O-Line Coordinator from Parcell's old regime doesn't mean he'll be successful. The Dolphins had the worst team in the NFL this year and didn't really do anything drastic past taking Long, to help this team. They're obviously still in rebuilding mode just like Atlanta Falcons, except the fact they don't have a franchise QB like the Falcons just drafted. So unlike you said, the Falcons have sent a message that they're moving on from the Mike Vick Saga and moving forward. Falcons took the top QB in the draft while the Dolphins took the top O-Lineman.....last time I checked, it's usually the QB that is more important to a franchise's success. The Dolphins have drafted 2 of the secondary QB prospects in the last 2 drafts, and neither really look like they have the tools of a Tom Brady, Brett Favre, Matt Hasselbeck, or Peyton Manning, they look more like a David Garrard if they can even develop. Matt Ryan in college didn't have the top receivers like Henne, yet Ryan led his team to several wins. His ability to spread the ball around is similar to Tom Brady or Matt Hasselbeck, where he doesn't really need 1 dominant WR to be effective. So the Falcons have sent a message in what direction they're heading, while the Dolphins are the one that really are kinda in neutral since they didn't add any real presence to the positions that win games. Ronnie Brown is also coming off an ACL injury, and most running backs lose their explosiveness from these injuries. Last time I checked too, Josh McCown is NOTHING special, trust me, he won't hold any fort down when your playing the Pats So the Dolphins still got tons of rebuilding to do, especially when arguable the face of the franchise, Jason Taylor, might be moved soon.




The Redskins Defense is built to win now, while the offense is very injury prone. That doesn't help much when you have to play 6 games against the toughest division in the NFC that includes the SB champs, the NFC's team with the best record, and a Eagles team that reached the NFC Championship numerous times in recent history. The defense is up to par right now, but their window isn't that big as you would like to think. The great secondary you mentioned consists of the youngster LaRon Landry, then a 29 year old Smoot and a 33 year old Springs. I give Smoot only a few more years if he isn't declining already and Springs is already on the decline. London Fletcher also is 33 years old, and he won't be able to hold down the middle by himself with the D-Line the Skins got. The Redskins also lost 2 of the great leaders from their successful defense last year, when they tragically lost Sean Taylor in that horrible shooting, and Gregg Williams, the Mastermind Schemist behind it all.

Another factor I already brought up is how injury prone their offense has been the last 2 years. Clinton Portis, the prized RB, has had difficulties staying on the field. He's the home run hitter in the running game that they need if they're going to win. The thing that would worry me is that their franchise QB tore his ACL last year down the stretch of the season and it takes at least 10 months to heal up and rehabilitate from those injuries. Will they let him sit out training camp to heal or will they try to bring him back too early possibly risking another injury? I know this team is built to win now but Jim Zorn doesn't have enough head coaching experience to help them fulfill their potential IMO. So by the time he's got enough experience, it might be too late for this team he has now and they'll have to reload the arsenal again.





While Sparano has Parcells build him a team that is Parcell's players, and Zorn is handed someone else's team, Mike Smith gets to build his own team with players he likes. He's the same guy that has made the Ravens D so intimidating, and the one that put a "ROAR!" into the Jacksonville D. So he should have no problem building up the Atlanta defense into a powerhouse, since defense wins championships. The offense will soon follow with the additions of Matt Ryan and Michael Turner this off-season. For a coach to succeed, it's important for him to be able to get players he can work with, and the other 2 guys haven't had as much control as Mike Smith has gotten. He's the guy that developed so many great players like Ray Lewis, Rashean Mathis, Henderson/Stroud duo, and the plethora of LB's in Baltimore. I believe that Smith will be the most successful out of all the coaches.

I have already said this, but let me reiterate...MATT RYAN WILL NOT SUCCEED IMHO. He has too little experience and not enough talent in the receiving corps to make up for it. No O-Line either, so he will be on the ground a lot...Hard to make plays from your duff. What makes you think that he can spread the ball around in the NFL just as he did in college? You make it sound like any of us could do it.

I agree, it WILL be tough for Zorn to last in the East, however, the Giants lost Strahan, their long-time defensive leader, and Philadelphia is still clinging on to their previous championship appearances. McNabb hasn't been healthy for the past 2 and a half years, he is not going to magically show up this year. His glory days are done. On top of that, Dallas will make it tough for anyone else to exist in this division. Period.

Back to the age topic, Washington addressed that this year in the draft when they got three DB's and a DE. I can only assume that they will do the same this coming draft. They also addressed the injury at QB by gettting Colt Brennan. With Todd Collins on the roster, Colt will learn well and serve as a good back-up to Campbell.

Just because Parcells is a true blue team-builder at heart doesn't mean Sparano will have success. And just because Atlanta has "moved past" Micheal Vick and drafted their "savior" Matt Ryan, does not mean Smith will succeed either. While they have to be worried about building their respective teams, Zorn already has one (however old they may be) and can build on what he has right now.

The Redskins really have a golden opportunity here in my eyes. IMO, Dallas's run will only last 2-3 years. By that time, Washington will have had two more draft classes with veteran leadership overhead, and a rookie class getting in the swing of things, and will be stacked and experienced the season after. With that opprtunity and the likelihood of it falling through alone, Zorn has the best shot at success long-term.

[Lor2435]

First, I agree with LOR, Matt Ryan will turn out like David Carr did, if not worse. David Carr even had a Pro Bowler in his receiving corps, and with no offensive line and minimal experience, was annihilated. Ryan faces the same fate.

hear hear!

As for age and injuries, yes, they are a concern. However, while Smith and Sparano are building teams with players they want, Jim Zorn has an experienced team of veterans that can mold his future draft picks into exactly what they need to be on both sides of the ball. AND they are as you said, built to win now. Sparano has very little experience as far as players, and his most experienced is not on good terms with the team, and is toward the end of his career anyway. It is smart to build a teams from the trenches, that is where the battle is won and lost, but there is not enough time for him to gather the players he needs to be successful and develop them too. The same goes for Smith in Atlanta. Not very much veteran leadership OR playmaking ability.

That first sentence says it all. Sparano and Smith get to start from scratch and bring in "their guys" while Jim Zorn is kinda hand cuffed by the guys he already has on the roster. Dan Snyder knows that his team's window of opportunity is shrinking and because of that i think he's on the shortest leash of the 3. If he doesn't make the playoffs this season i could easily see him being replaced after this season... I really think he was the hire simply because they couldn't find anyone else.

Let's also not forget that the Redskins lost their awesome D coordinator, Greg Williams, after the passed him over the the HC job... his loss will be felt.

I agree, it WILL be tough for Zorn to last in the East, however, the Giants lost Strahan, their long-time defensive leader, and Philadelphia is still clinging on to their previous championship appearances. McNabb hasn't been healthy for the past 2 and a half years, he is not going to magically show up this year. His glory days are done. On top of that, Dallas will make it tough for anyone else to exist in this division. Period.

the loss of Strahan is the least of the Giants' concerns... If i were the Redskins i'd be more concerned that Philly and the Cowboys are much improved teams and they were both better than the Skins before this offseason.

Back to the age topic, Washington addressed that this year in the draft when they got three DB's and a DE. I can only assume that they will do the same this coming draft. They also addressed the injury at QB by gettting Colt Brennan. With Todd Collins on the roster, Colt will learn well and serve as a good back-up to Campbell.

The Skins will plug holes in the draft but so will every other team... the problem the skins have is that they are far from perfect now, but when they start losing those older players they're going to have even more holes to fill. I'll be shocked if Colt Brennan sticks with thise team.

Just because Parcells is a true blue team-builder at heart doesn't mean Sparano will have success. And just because Atlanta has "moved past" Micheal Vick and drafted their "savior" Matt Ryan, does not mean Smith will succeed either. While they have to be worried about building their respective teams, Zorn already has one (however old they may be) and can build on what he has right now.

Parcells separates himself from the Falcons right away because he is building this team with a plan. There's no question that the Skins have the better roster right now, but because of that Zorn will have much more pressure on him to succeed.

The Redskins really have a golden opportunity here in my eyes. IMO, Dallas's run will only last 2-3 years. By that time, Washington will have had two more draft classes with veteran leadership overhead, and a rookie class getting in the swing of things, and will be stacked and experienced the season after. With that opprtunity and the likelihood of it falling through alone, Zorn has the best shot at success long-term.

The Skins will be lucky if their "run" lasts 2-3 years.

[drews69chevelle_08]

Originally Posted by LOR2435

That first sentence says it all. Sparano and Smith get to start from scratch and bring in "their guys" while Jim Zorn is kinda hand cuffed by the guys he already has on the roster. Dan Snyder knows that his team's window of opportunity is shrinking and because of that i think he's on the shortest leash of the 3. If he doesn't make the playoffs this season i could easily see him being replaced after this season... I really think he was the hire simply because they couldn't find anyone else.

Let's also not forget that the Redskins lost their awesome D coordinator, Greg Williams, after the passed him over the the HC job... his loss will be felt.

the loss of Strahan is the least of the Giants' concerns... If i were the Redskins i'd be more concerned that Philly and the Cowboys are much improved teams and they were both better than the Skins before this offseason.

The Skins will plug holes in the draft but so will every other team... the problem the skins have is that they are far from perfect now, but when they start losing those older players they're going to have even more holes to fill. I'll be shocked if Colt Brennan sticks with thise team.

Parcells separates himself from the Falcons right away because he is building this team with a plan. There's no question that the Skins have the better roster right now, but because of that Zorn will have much more pressure on him to succeed.

The Skins will be lucky if their "run" lasts 2-3 years.

That's the thing though LOR, Jim Zorn ISN'T "handcuffed" by these players. Age is not a restraining device, it is the first block he is putting down to lay his foundation for the future. Zorn DOES get to bring in his own players, too. The draft is for everyone last time I checked.

All I am saying to that is that the players you mentioned that are getting old all still have 2-4 or 5 years left in them, with the exception of 2 or 3. Age = Experience, and Experience = The passing on of knowledge. Jim Zorn is in a better position of rebuilding his team because he has more and better mentors to help the growing and learning process of the players he will bring in. A quick learning process = faster involvment and production on the field.

Yes, the defensive coordinator will be missed, but they aren't filling the void with somebody new to the game. This is what I found off of http://www.redskins.com/team/cprofile.jsp?id=30

Blache takes over a Redskins defense that re-established itself in 2007, finishing eighth overall and third in the NFL in total defense.

Blache's defensive units have always had a reputation for being aggressive and physical.

"Greg is an outstanding coach whose defenses are among the best in the league year after year," head coach Jim Zorn said. "His experience, knowledge and preparation make him one of the top defensive minds in the NFL. His game plans always put players in the best possible position to succeed."

In three of the last four seasons, Blache has helped oversee a Redskins' defense that has finished in the Top 10 in overall defense (3rd in 2004; 9th in 2005; and eighth in 2007).

The Redskins improved from the 31st ranked defense overall in 06 to the 8th ranked overall this past year, an improvement only surpassed by the Titans. The 'Skins were also 3rd in total defense.

Greg Blache was the d-line coach for the past five years, and last year his unit ranked 4th in rush yards allowed per game with a 93 yard average. All signs point to him picking up most of the slack left behind.

The loss of Strahan WILL affect the Giants in my opinion, but that is off topic. The Eagles are going to be a bust again this season, because they have a diminishing quarterback with no good back-up.

As for your hire beacause of lack of coaching pool depth, I have this to say:
DON"T DIVE HEAD FIRST INTO THE SHALLOW END! No NFL team is going to hire someone because there is nobody else out there. They are going to search far and wide at who gives their team the best look in the future and the best shot at winning.

And as for the Colt Brennan comment, there is no rationality behind that...It's a vague opinion. No one has even seen him in a game-time situation. Wait until you see him in the pre-season to determine that.

The Redskins have all the tools that they need right now, and are drafting the tools that they need to replace the old one. The old ones will teach the new ones a trick or two, and the new ones will take over with a refreshing new look. Zorn has the best shot hands-down at having the best career with his team because he will not be the only one working on it.

I know I am redundant, but all of these coaches have a foundation to lay...It's just that the hill is too steep for Miami and Atlanta to climb.

(I am not being rude in any shape, form, or fashion.)

[J_Ray]

Originally Posted by LOR2435

The Falcons are rebuilding their team incorrectly. They hire a defensive coach but they draft a QB instead of the #1 defensive
player? Matt Ryan was the wrong pick and is destined to fail for a few reasons and Mike Smith's destiny is tied with the success of Matt Ryan. First, Ryan going to start from game one because the rest of the QB's on this team are terrible. Second, he's got no real targets. Roddy White looked promising last season, but that's it... let's not forget they lost Alge Crumpler. And lastly, he has absolutely no offensive line. How is Matt Ryan expected to succeed with no targets, no experience and no offensive line?

The Falcons should have drafted Glenn Dorsey. That pick would have shown a commitment to rebuilding the D and relying on a potentially good running game. Dorsey would give the D a presence that they currently lack. Dorsey also would have maximized the pick of Jamaal Anderson from last years draft who is currently the only talented player on the defensive line.

This theory isn't always true, or else the Bengals wouldn't have one of the top offenses in the NFL. Just because you get a defensive minded coach doesn't mean that you can't develop a QB. Also what would be the logic behind drafting a Defensive Tackles and paying him 10 million a year when you got Jamaal Anderson and John Abraham making quite a bit of money and no QB to boot? Putting around 35 million of cap into the D-Line and "Zippo" into your QB is just stupid. How many teams have won the Super Bowl with guys like Joey Harrington or Chris Redman as their starter? Finding defensive line players is a lot easier in the later round than it is finding a franchise QB. They also have a young, upcoming DT in Jonathan Babineaux with plenty of other young DT's they've drafted in the last few drafts. Dorsey also had a lingering knee problem last year, that would scare me away if I was investing the money into an unsure product called a rookie. You don't know what your getting, you just assume or project that these guys are the top players for their positions. Why take someone that had a lingering injury, especially when it has to hold 300+ pounds and take the wear and tear of the trench?

Who says he will be starting from Day 1 too? NFL coaches & GM's aren't stupid enough to throw their franchise QB they just drafted, to the wolves right off the back. Most NFL guys have seen what happened to David Carr, and won't do that again. But even if they did, Matt Ryan is much more proven than Carr was coming out of college. Ryan has faced top notch competition, against ACC players destined for the NFL...while Carr was facing CFL hopefuls. The Falcons don't have a target issue either, it's just the style they play, which is attack on the ground. Atlanta has been one of the top rushing attacks for awhile now, and they added Michael Turner to replace an aging Dunn and Jerious Norwood has another year of experience under his belt. Plus the Falcons signed Joe Horn last year, he didn't get a chance to prove he still had talent cuz their QB's couldn't hit the open receivers last year. According to the guy that picked Zorn, experienced players can mentor younger players, so Horn can mentor Roddy White, Michael Jenkins, and their 3rd Round DRAFT PICK, Harry Douglas, which they took to address their WR "Problem" everyone says they have. Turner also isn't no slouch coming out the backfield, so that is another target they added Can't say they didn't address that problem because they did it in innovative ways that people didn't realize.

The Redskins have the same problem the Ravens have... their players are old. Zorn has the best chance of short term success, but his window is 3 years at most. On defense Phillip Daniels (35), Cornelius Griffen (32), London Fletcher (33) and Shawn Springs (33) are all key players that are on the down sides of their careers.

On offense things aren't much better. Clinton Portis will only be 27, but he's going down the path of Shaun Alexander... Chris Samuels (31), Pete Kendall (35), CAsey Rabach (31), Randy Thomas (32), Jon Jansen (32), Mike Sellers (32) and Ladell Betts (29) are all coming to the end of their careers.ealth has always been a problem for this team as well.

Campbell is always nursing something, the receivers have ankle problems and the offensive tackles are really banged up as well. McIntosh is also coming off of serious knee surgery and may not be 100%.

Thanks for Re-Emphasizing my point I brought up already

The Dolphins haven't done much outside of Jake Long?! They got Jason Ferguson and Anthony Fasano from Dallas, then they signed Ernest Wilford, Josh McCown (the starting QB while Henne develops), Randy Starks, Justin Smily, and Chris Crocker. The Dolphins may have been the worst team last season, but the cupboards are not bare.

Unlike the Falcons, the Dolphins at least have direction with their moves. The Dolphins hire an offensive line guru and draft the best one #1 overall while the Falcons hire a defensive coach but draft a QB.

So bringing in a young TE and a WR that Jacksonville didn't want anymore (a team that needs decent WR's), Journeyman QB in McCown, and a few players that lost their starting spots with their other teams is an okay off-season but it's not much considering they were the worse team in the NFL last year with their cupboards "not bare". But I guess it will be nice when Jake Long provides the extra time for Josh McCown to try to find an open target, since he's such a stud as he proved in Oakland

Originally Posted by drews69chevelle_08

First, I agree with LOR, Matt Ryan will turn out like David Carr did, if not worse. David Carr even had a Pro Bowler in his receiving corps, and with no offensive line and minimal experience, was annihilated. Ryan faces the same fate.

Read Above, I already answered this stuff.....also btw, Manning started from day 1

As for age and injuries, yes, they are a concern. However, while Smith and Sparano are building teams with players they want, Jim Zorn has an experienced team of veterans that can mold his future draft picks into exactly what they need to be on both sides of the ball. AND they are as you said, built to win now. Sparano has very little experience as far as players, and his most experienced is not on good terms with the team, and is toward the end of his career anyway. It is smart to build a teams from the trenches, that is where the battle is won and lost, but there is not enough time for him to gather the players he needs to be successful and develop them too. The same goes for Smith in Atlanta. Not very much veteran leadership OR playmaking ability.

Keywords are "future" draft picks, he might not be around long enough to make those draft picks and get the kind of players he wants since he's got an older team that needs to win now. At least Smith gets to bring in his own players and they'll look up to him much like his defensive players in Jacksonville and Baltimore, after all he only was the mentor for the great Ray Lewis, and a few other defensive players such as Rashean Mathis, John Henderson, Marcus Stroud, Adalius Thomas, etc. Guess you don't need real leadership to help players become Pro-Bowl Caliber

I have already said this, but let me reiterate...MATT RYAN WILL NOT SUCCEED IMHO. He has too little experience and not enough talent in the receiving corps to make up for it. No O-Line either, so he will be on the ground a lot...Hard to make plays from your duff. What makes you think that he can spread the ball around in the NFL just as he did in college? You make it sound like any of us could do it.

You both sound like broken answer machines, I already answered this stuff above....plus not everyone spread the ball around in college and was effective as him. He had no real NFL caliber receivers to throw too, just a bunch of Joe Schmoe's that made decent college careers. Yet his team was atop the ACC for most the year. So I doubt any of us could do it....especially since we sit in front of a computer debating in our free time

I agree, it WILL be tough for Zorn to last in the East, however, the Giants lost Strahan, their long-time defensive leader, and Philadelphia is still clinging on to their previous championship appearances. McNabb hasn't been healthy for the past 2 and a half years, he is not going to magically show up this year. His glory days are done. On top of that, Dallas will make it tough for anyone else to exist in this division. Period.

Giants have so much talent on the D-Line, Strahan isn't that big of a loss since he's already passed on so much knowledge to the younger Defensive Ends he's mentored over the years. McNabb is always full of surprises and usually comes up big when the critics doubt him. He's had a few misfortunate injuries that happened at crazy moments. He should be back and Philly is always competitive. Dallas is built to dominate the NFC for a few more years.

Just because Parcells is a true blue team-builder at heart doesn't mean Sparano will have success. And just because Atlanta has "moved past" Micheal Vick and drafted their "savior" Matt Ryan, does not mean Smith will succeed either. While they have to be worried about building their respective teams, Zorn already has one (however old they may be) and can build on what he has right now.

I don't understand your reasoning behind getting somebody else's players being a good thing? This is his first coaching gig, without any coo