Debate Game: Round 1, Group 2

[ruuuuudiii]

Alright everyone, welcome to the show.

I hope everyone here has read the rules.

This debate is for the 4 members of Group One ONLY, there will be no posts accepted by anyone else. Once the debate has ended and the poll has closed, the topic becomes open to everyone.

Here are the 4 contestants ...

Group Two:
Azazel
jc09pats
Texecutioner
GatorsRock

Remember, the point of this game is to prove who has the best debating skills. You not only have to focus on proving your point, but also on debunking the views of the opponent. Judging should be based on who debated the best, not necessarily who you agree with the most.


Here is your topic:

In 2007, Tampa Bay had the 4th pick in the draft, and Washington had the 6th. Both teams made the playoffs the following year. The previous year, the Saints picked 2nd, then went on to the playoffs. In 2005, the Bucs again pulled off the feat, as did the Bears. Here are the teams that had top 6 draft picks in this most recent draft.

Miami Dolphins
St. Louis Rams
Atlanta Falcons
Oakland Raiders
Kansas City Chiefs
New York Jets

Which of these 6 teams is most likely to make the playoffs this season, and why?

Contestants, remember. You now have 24 hours to present your opening statement. There will be no debating until either everyone has presented their opening statement, or the 24 hours has elapsed.

And.............................go!

[GatorsRock]

I'm going to go with the St. Louis Rams. They were killed with injuries last season, play in one of the weakest divisions in the NFL, and added one of the biggest impact players in the draft. Adding Carriker and Chris Long in the draft the last 2 years will really bolster their DL. Add both of them to a line with Leonard Little and they could be very very scary.

They still have a potentially explosive offense with the 3 headed monster of Marc Bulger, Stephen Jackson, and Tory Holt. They also added some depth with the additions of Trent Green and Reche Caldwell. Not to mention that they added one of the better kickers in the NFL Josh Brown and have one of the most electrifying returners of all time in Dante Hall. Their special teams could be much improved this season. If they can get some pressure on the QB then that will make secondary's job much easier, which is the weakest link of their team. But other than the Cardinals tandem, do any of the other teams in the division scare you as a good passing team? SF? Seattle? They don't scare me at all.

Bulger and Jackson both missed 4 games this past year. Orlando Pace missed 15. I know he's on the downswing of his career, but he could still be a productive player in their offense. The Rams only had 1 player on their offensive line that started all 16 games last season: Alex Barron. They also had Andy McCollum who started 10 games, Brett Romberg who started 9 games, and Brandon Gorin who started 8 games. The lack of a consistent offensive line definitely hurt their offensive production all season. They return Orlando Pace and add a guy like Jacob Bell, who started all 16 games at guard for the Titans this season. They also added John Greco, T, from Toledo in the 3rd round in the draft. They also got a potential 1st round talent at CB(from the mocks before the draft) from Penn State in Justin King. The best way for an offensive line to shine is continuity, which they obviously weren't able to have last season.

[jc09pats]

My choice is the New York Jets (because gators took a good one with the Rams). We'll go through each position.

QB-They return 2 potential starters in Chad Pennington and Kellen Clemens. Together they passed for 3,330 yards, comparable to playoff bound Giants (3376). Pennington has past playoff expierence (2002, 2004, 2006), and Clemens looks like he's ready to take over if given the chance. Either way, their starting QB is going to be good.

RB-Thomas Jones ran for 1119 yards last year, and will likely run for more with an improved line. Leon Washington only ran for 353, but is only getting better after a great year of kick returning. The duo ran for 1472 yards, which is a decent amount. Their entire team ran for 1701 yards, more then playoff bound packers (1597) and the seahawks (1619). Their running game is only getting better, especially after they added FB Tony Richardson, who was part of the reason Vikings ran for a league leading 2634 (and Adrian Peterson's 1341).

WR-Jerricho Cotchery 1130 yards last year, but only 2 TDs (he's had 82 receptions the past 2 years in a row). Coles had 55 rec, 646 yards, and 6 tds (2006 season-91rec, 1098 yards, and 6tds). Both have the chance to be good. With an inconsistent QB starter, their production suffered. This year-one QB will start all season as long as they produce, and these 2 WRs are why they will produce. An improved running game will also help the WRs. Brad Smith also had 30rec/300+ yards last year, and will look to improve as their #3.

TE-New draftee Dustin Keller was taken a bit high at 30th overall, but adds to the TE core none the less. Also they signed Bubba Franks this offseason, who needed a change of scenery. Baker had 400 yards last year, but may hold out against his contract. If he doesn't play, Keller is known for being more of a recieving TE, and Franks has been a good blocker and catcher in the past. If he does play, it makes this group that much better.

OL-D'brick will enter his 3rd year, and should step it up. He's gotten some help in the signing of Alan Faneca, who will improve the running game tremedously. Nick Mangold is also entering his 3rd year, the year to show up or get cut. Brandon Moore will return at RG, and Damien Woody was brought in to improve the RT.

DL-Shaun Ellis will return and should be better with a stronger supporting cast. He returns as the leading sack returner (tied with David Harris). Kris Jenkins and his new weight will be a nice expirement as a NT. If he can return to his old self, he will be dominant again. Kenyon Colemen was the 3rd leading tackler on the team and returns at the opposite end.

LB-Bryan Thomas returns after starting last year. Eric Barton, 4th in tackles last year, also returns at LB. Calvin Pace was signed away from Arizona this offseason, and is looking to make an impact to compliment his new contract. Vernon Gholston was drafted 6th overall, should fight for a starting spot somewhere at LB (likely with Bryan Thomas). David Harris, the leading tackler last year with 126 total, also returns and will likely have another great season.

DB-2 CBs from last year return in Darrell Revis (2nd in tackles with 87 and 2nd in INTs with 3 as a rookie) and Justin Miller will start after being hurt last year after 2 decent years. Kerry Rhodes has been solid ever since he was taken by the Jets. Rhodes has had seasons of 106, 99, and 68 tackles. He added 5 INTs last year with 4 the year before, and 2 forced fumbles and 3 the year before. With a better cast, he will have less tackles then he had his first 2 years, but will have a better year with more INTs and pass deflections. Abram Elam had an alright year with 53 tackles, but no INTs. He will have to improve.

K/P-Mike Nugent will look to improve his 80.6% (29-36) kicking percent, and he should as he enters his 4th year. He had made 88% the year before, and should return close to 90% this year. Ben Graham returns at punter. He kicked 66 punts, with 23 being inside the 20 (and 9 inside the 10). With a more productive offense, Nugent will increase both accuracy and kicks made, and Graham's number of punts will go down yet again like it did the past 2 years (74 to 72 to 66).

Other Reasons-Yes they play in a tougher confrence in the AFC, but are better then the bills and the dolphins and should beat them both twice. They have a reasonable shot at 9-7 this year, with a chance to go 10-6 if they play their cards right against seattle and st louis. Mangini may be playing for his future, so he will make better decisions in year 3, as well as a few key players are playing for their jobs/contracts (pennington, coles).

[Azazel]

Lets look at the teams individually shall we?

The Dolphins- This is a rebuilding year. They have to build offensively and defensively. You can't go from worst to first without some sort of building block be it an offensive line, defensive line a quarterback. Right now Miami doesn't have any of that. They have key additions, and a great draft, and are headed in the right direction. Also Parcells has never made the playoffs in his FIRST year in with a team....and he is NOT coaching, so we can take our fingers off the magic wand hopefuls.

A better goal would be for them to reach .500.



The Rams- I am going to disagree with this pick of them going to the playoffs this coming season...I realize that is a weak weak division, but lets look a bit deeper....They probably won't because even though they have a good defensive line, they don't have a defensive line veteran. All of them are still new, so there's no leadership. Little, Carriker, and Long don't have a mentor. Without saying, defensive line is very important for many reasons. It was because of a great defensive line that led the Giants to the superbowl over the Pats. The difference between the Giant's line and the Ram's line is having a Michael Strahan, which has been to a Superbowl, and knows what it takes to win a superbowl.

Right now, I don't think Bulgar is the man to lead the Rams to the Playoffs. Maybe he was the man after Warner left, but right now, he isn't. He is WAY past is prime, and the rams have no youth running the team. This year in the draft, the rams picked 2 offensive lineman, 2 defensive lineman, 2 wides, and a linebacker. None of these positions has the authority to lead a team into the playoffs,especially NOT a superbowl.

I think the rams would have been better off picking Matt Ryan, so they can get some youth running the team. The last thing they need is another young defensive lineman to worry about, when their last first round pick was struggling last year.

Tye hill was supposed to be the Ram's Premier Cornerback, but hasn't proven himself yet. He has been beaten every time by WRs and turned the Ram's Defense, into one of the worst last year. He needs to straighten himself up, because he is straining the Ram's salary cap to boot.

Steven Jackson did well, but not as well as everyone thought he would. I don't see him bouncing back like everyone else does... If he does a little better this year, the Rams might stand a chance. But you cannot just rely on offense, you need a good defense to help prevent opposite scores.

Dante hall had a few run backs. That was nice. but what else is he gonna do? Nada

Orlando pace needs to stay healthy but even at peak, how long does he last? The rams need an anchoring offensive lineman to teach the rookies how it is done.

Something that surprises me is that the Rams DO have Randy McMichael and Joe Klopfenstein. These are both great tight ends, but the rams just arnt udelizing them to their full potential. McMichael definantly streatched out the Dolphin's passing game which helped Welker get a nice contract with the Patriots, and helped kick start Ronnie Brown's running game. Joe Klopfenstein was a great tight end from colorado state that was a second round pick. Why would you pick a perfectly good tight end that you wouldn't use. Joe can catch, run, and block, all that you ask of a tight end. Just give him some playing time, PLEASE.

Im guessing the Rams will end off 7-9 and get an 11th-16th overall draft pick next year. Maybe the year after this one, they will make it, but this year... It seems very unlikely The Rams make the playoffs in my point of view.


Falcons- I am not even going to waste a paragraph on this......no.


Raiders- I personally think the Defense will upgrade, because Rob Ryan will correct all the mistakes from last year at least a little bit. Now if you look at the secondary, although Hall is a question mark, you cannot deny the talent in the back of that defense...on all cylinders, it could . Their division doesn't really have a threat expect Brandon Marshall and maybe Chambers from the chargers. But outside of that, threats are small. They can stuff the run because if they can keep Tommy Kelly and Ed hartwell healthy as well as Burgess rushing the passer. They COULD have a possible Top 5 defense which will keep them in alot of games.

Now offense wise, If Russell can live up to the bill even though it is his first season but he will go through some lumps. The offense had the 6th ranked ground game last year and if J Russell put up 225 yards and a TD against a San Diego Defense in their house with no mini camp, training camp or full season then imagine what he will do in the same system, in the same blocking scheme, same coaches with no changes...etc.etc.etc. Mention the running game....Fargas and Mcfadden will help dramatically on an already more than decent corps but don't forget about Michael Bush, he didn't play last year but his big frame will give them more of a bruising threat. But my main question is who is Russell throwing too. I know Curry is good for 800 to 900 yards but Will Javon Walker show up this year and play healthy. If he does and Drew Carter can add at little help. Lets add that Lane Kiffen is on the hottest seat in america. So I think it might get interesting.
I like the Raiders to win 9 games.


Chiefs- I will be reasonable and go with 6-10.... 7-9 maybe .500. They had a draft of the ages, and have a great set of guys for the future, but with Brodie Croyle as Starter and only one good OT, they Chiefs will only surrender maybe 50 sacks this year as opposed to the 56 last year. Yippie! lol but seriously their Defense is looking better and better and Dwayne Bowe and Bobbi Sipio are going to be great this season so I think a 7-9 season this year.....but again, they had a monster draft and will reap the rewards once the picks develop a bit....but it wont be this season.


Jets- At first glance, this was the team I was going to pick to debate. They are near that bubble, especially after the draft and the moves they made in the free agent and trade markets. BUT...with a closer look.....No!! They would have to have a better record than the Jaguars, Texans and Steelers or Browns (not to mention Buffalo)... Not a chance....

@ MIA W
vs NE L
@ SD L
vs ARI L
vs CIN W
@ OAK L
vs KC W
@ BUF L
vs STL W
@ NE L
@ TEN L
vs DEN W
vs SF L
vs BUF W
@ SEA L
vs MIA W

Being VERY optimistic, it looks like they have a possibility of winning 7 games... not enough to put them in the playoffs, especially in the AFC...Left tackles are great....but you will need a QB to win.


In conclusion....I don't see how you CAN'T say for an absolute definite that the Raiders are NOT the 2nd best team in the AFC west.

They might not win the division, but they will make the playoffs.

[jc09pats]

I wont give russell and the raiders that much credit. Russell did taht in week 17-after the chargers were in the playoffs. you have to aim for health at that point. i'll agree that the RBs will be good, and the WRs should be, but that OL is crap. With a bad OL, the rest does a worse job. While they may be the 2nd best team in the AFCW-they wont make the playoffs. 2 teams from the AFCS are going to make it, and i wouldnt be suprised if a 3rd makes it. if the bengals, browns, or steelers are as good as they can be, 2 of them will make it aswell, leaving out the raiders.

[Azazel]

Originally Posted by jc09pats

I wont give russell and the raiders that much credit. Russell did taht in week 17-after the chargers were in the playoffs. you have to aim for health at that point. i'll agree that the RBs will be good, and the WRs should be, but that OL is crap. With a bad OL, the rest does a worse job. While they may be the 2nd best team in the AFCW-they wont make the playoffs. 2 teams from the AFCS are going to make it, and i wouldnt be suprised if a 3rd makes it. if the bengals, browns, or steelers are as good as they can be, 2 of them will make it aswell, leaving out the raiders.

it isnt the actual argument, its how I argued my point. I have no idea how you can disagree with my points the way they were argued. I pointed out everything on all the other teams mentioned and have proved without a doubt that that what I have said will hold true.

[jc09pats]

yeah you did do a good way of telling your point, but how can you say the rams DL doesnt have a mentor? Leonard Little is 34, as well is La'Roi GLover. I think they have some kind of mentoring in them. With both being so old-they had to draft DL the past 2 years. they know that DL is one of the top spots to be good, and they have to get some youth in there now, and they are grabbing them in the 1st.

to gator's statement:"SF? Seattle?"(in regard to a passing attack) actually yeah both can be decent. SF got mike martz (who woulda thought mike furrey (sp) would have been as good as he played). they have issac bruce (solid #2/3 and a great mentor for martz's offense), bryant johnson (has talent), and a couple other WRs with potential to work it in the martz offense (lelie and arnaz battle). frank gore will be good again, and could be a great option to pass to as well. Seattle still has matt hasselbeck, deion branch, nate burleson, and bobby engram. while seattles on its way down, they still have players. these wrs all against poor DBs.




the raiders season rest on jamarcus russell. he played alright on week 17 against a playoff bound SD. we cant take that game as a preview of his week in/out production (sorta like brady quinn in preseason against lions in the 4th quarter and 3rd stringers). with a poor OL-he's going to suffer, good or not. hopefully he isnt over 270 and gotten slow like reports seem to have indicated earlier this offseason (which is loseable in 4 months but still a bad thing to have happen). A lack of a proven backup QB is also a problem. Russell's learning from Andrew Walter and Marquis Tui..., not the best mentors. lane kiffen is on the hottest seat for al davis. if he goes 0-3 or 1-4, hes got a strong chance to be fired (hell he could win and get fired knowing davis). that would screw up the team. they also bought all their talent-which i know the jets did too-but they also spent more of more risk. Javon Walker is injury prone, and Deangelo Hall is either great or bad (i have no idea anymore). The jets did go out and buy talent, but they got a bit better in character with alan faneca to raiders signees, and also didnt over pay as much with calvin pace and kris jenkins.

here's the raiders scheduale with my predictions (i gave 1 or 2 wins that are iffy and also 1 or 2 loses):
Denver-W
@KC-W
@Buffalo-L
SD-L
Bye
@NO-L
NYJ-W (just to be nice)
@Bmore-W
ATL-W
Carolina-L
@Miami-L
@Denver-L
KC-W
@SD -L
NE -L
Houston-L
@Tampa Bay-L

that puts them at 6 wins. they'd have to jell well it they want 9 wins. i can see 8 as a chance, but that wont make it in.

[Azazel]

Originally Posted by jc09pats

yeah you did do a good way of telling your point, but how can you say the rams DL doesnt have a mentor? Leonard Little is 34, as well is La'Roi GLover. I think they have some kind of mentoring in them.

using your own words..."Kind of" isnt a leader/mentor type.

With both being so old-they had to draft DL the past 2 years. they know that DL is one of the top spots to be good, and they have to get some youth in there now, and they are grabbing them in the 1st.

Just because they have age and experience does not mean they are mentors, does not mean they are leaders, ESPECIALLY Glover, who has been a whiner and not the one to rally the troops. Little cant even manage himself none the less be a leader to a bunch of young guys. They dont have anyone on that defense ESPECIALLY the line that can lead men against adversity.

the raiders season rest on jamarcus russell.

incorrect, they ranked #6 in rushing last year and added Darren McFadden now....and with another year under his belt, Russell will be more confident out there.

he played alright on week 17 against a playoff bound SD.

so they were ok with getting embarrassed by a hated in state division rival?

Javon Walker is injury prone,

yup, but a MAJOR upgrade from last and previous seasons. and now Russell will have a nice TARGET and an improved running game.......that was pretty good the year before.

and Deangelo Hall is either great or bad (i have no idea anymore).

again a HIUGE upgrade than previous seasons and being teamed with Gebril Wilson....thats a hell of a talented backfield.

here's the raiders scheduale with my predictions (i gave 1 or 2 wins that are iffy and also 1 or 2 loses):
Denver-W
@KC-W
@Buffalo-L
SD-L
Bye
@NO-L
NYJ-W (just to be nice)
@Bmore-W
ATL-W
Carolina-L
@Miami-L
@Denver-L
KC-W
@SD -L
NE -L
Houston-L
@Tampa Bay-L

that puts them at 6 wins. they'd have to jell well it they want 9 wins. i can see 8 as a chance, but that wont make it in.

I do not see them losing to Denver both times and I dont see them losing to San Diego both times....these are division rivals, no matter how good or bad these teams are a season split isnt abnormal. I also dont see ow carolina, or Buffalo beats Oakland.

that is a 4 game flaw in your plan.

[GatorsRock]

Rams-Sure they don't have a mentor, but if they get some help from Chris Long I think they could be a poor man's Texans from last season. Mario Williams struggled his rookie year with injuries and double teams, put in a guy like Amobi Okoye next to him and he was able to have the season that the Texans thought he could have drafting him. The same thing could happen to Carriker and Long. They also have talent on the DL, say what you want about them not being mentors, but they are still quality players and that will help Carriker and Long. If they can get enough pressure on the QB, which I really think that they can that will help out their weakest area which is DB's. If the DL gets pressure then that means less time for them to have to cover and that could make Tye Hill finally live up to his potential. Look at their division though, do any of the offenses in that division scare you? Cardinals have a first year starter starting with all of their weapons, but the Seahawks/49ers offenses don't really scare me.

The offense is one of the most dangerous offenses if healthy. Stephen Jackson is still a top 3-5 back in the NFL. Torry Holt is still a top 3 WR in the NFL. With some continuity on the line Bulger could stay a top 7-10 QB, which he was before this season. If Pace comes back, obviously he won't be as much of a stud as last year, but if he can stay healthy he's still a very good offensive line and he can mentor the younger guys.

The Rams get the NFC/AFC East this year. Since they finished last they get the Bears and Falcons as their rotation teams, which could be 2 of the worst teams in the NFL. While it will be tough to win against the NFC East(I'll give them 1-3) or AFC East(2-2- Bills/Dolphins at home). If they can go 4-2 in their division that is easily 7 wins right there, then if you give them 2-0 in the rotational games that'd be a 9-7 record and in that division could allow them to win it. For the Rams, the health is key, especially in the trenches.

Jets Like Azy said, the Jets have one of the toughest schedules in the NFL this season. On top of the AFC West, they have to play 3rd place Tennessee who made the playoffs the last season. The Jets made tons of big moves this off season, but there is the chemistry issue since none of them have played together.

Raiders Their defense has definitely improved with the addition of DeAngelo Hall on an already good unit. JaMarcus Russell is the key though. While he won't be relied on exclusively because Justin Fargas is a damn good back and will take most of the pressure off of him. Remember McFadden is a rookie who is splitting carries, he's not going to have the type of season that Peterson had last year or even Marshawn Lynch, IMO. I can see him getting 1000-1100 total yards of offense next season. According to the http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol.php page, the Raiders OL was 16th with the run and 27th against the pass. They have a lot of solid players on the OL, but not really any standout players that can anchor a line. Oakland was ranked #29 at being stuffed on the run. I will credit some of that to Lamont Jordan's inability to run, but still that's pretty terrible. They allowed 41 sacks last season. That was ranked 21st. In order for them to be successful on offense, the offensive line really need to step up big time.

Azy, you say the Raiders aren't going to get swept in both of those series because they are rivals, how about Oakland beating KC twice, that's a rivalry as well. 3-3 in a tough division would be pretty impressive. I am with jcpats, 2-4 in division(beating KC and Den once) I just can't see them winning more than 7 or 8 games this season, which would be a great improvement from previous seasons. I still think Denver/SD are the 2 best teams in the division. Cutler has more experience then JaMarcus Russell and I think the Chiefs will be one of the more improved teams this season if Larry Johnson and the line stays healthy. As of right now Brodie Croyle and JaMarcus Russell are even on what they have proven in the league. I think Bowe will be the best WR on either of these teams.

[jc09pats]

Mario Williams struggled his rookie year with injuries and double teams, put in a guy like Amobi Okoye next to him and he was able to have the season that the Texans thought he could have drafting him

thats a great point.



as for rivalry games:
SD is a better team overall, and no doubt can beat them twice. the raiders may have improved, but the chargers are still good and have all the tools. They are returning from the AFC confrence championship game. Its also another year of Rivers having had his WRs. SD did beat oakland both times last year-and i see them doing it again. KC i could see the raiders beating twice, only because they are rebuilding. Denver id say they'd probably split, only because who knows how cutler will play and how the RBs/WRs will do.

and whos to say the raiders wont have chemistry issues like the jets? javon was a great addition, but if he cant gel with russell now, he wont be as affective. Defensivly it is a little easier to plug in new guys so its about even as far as arguing for the jets and against the raiders.



and as a side note-im on college trips for the next 10 days. ill have internet (all places should if not i will have it atleast every other day) so i cant say ill be as active as could be.