Debate Game: FINALS!

[ruuuuudiii]

I apologize first for not getting this up this morning, but I had server problems from hell for some reason.



Now, congratulations to our three finalists, these men have clawed and faught their way through every competitor in the field and it's now time to see who's cuisine reigns supreme. Uh, I mean who's debatery is the debaterest.

Introducing the finalists.

A counoisseur of fine wine and not so fine Packer football,

YoHo Checko

A man, who sticks with his team from thick to thicker,

jjflr

And lastly, the media tried to keep him out, but he wouldn't have any of it,

dbuilder

Congratulations to all three for your fine efforts up to now. Only one of you will raise the coveted debate game trophy. And since there are no Eagles represented, you all have an equal shot.


THE RULES:

Once I post the topic (which will be in just minutes) you will have 36 hours to make your opening statement. You will not be allowed to debate another's statement until, either all three have got your statements in, or, the 36 hour period is up. Since it's almost 5 pm Eastern here, I will make that deadline 5 am E.S.T. on Thursday. But I'm sure, all three of you will be ahead of schedule.


After the opening statements are posted, the fun begins. Your objective, as always, is to enhance your position while at the same time shooting down the opinions of your peers. At the end, votes will be cast to who the best at debating their case was, not necessarily who the voter agreed with.


You will have until next Tuesday to debate, and I expect lively conversation til then.


There will then be a public poll, the results of which account for 70% of the total point total. I will act as a judge and count for an additional 10%. I will have 2 outside judges as well, I still have to find one due to the tragedy in Soel's family, but I'll find a judge. Each judge's vote is worth 10%.


Good luck, keep it above the belt, and have fun.

[ruuuuudiii]

Here is the topic.

What is the one single-most important off-season move made in the NFL this year?

This could be a move that vaults a mediocre team into playoff contention, or a good team into a title contention.

It can be a free agent, draft pick, a coach, a re-signing or even a firing.





Good luck.

[ruuuuudiii]

Just bumping the thread in case it got lost on all the random comments threads.

Get to it guys.

[dbuilder]

Without question, the biggest off-season move has to be the New Commissioner, Roger Goodell's, inhanced position on the NFL Personal Conduct Policy.

With football taking the centerstage as America's favorite past-time, Roger Goodell's new disciplinary strategy has brought a focus on the NFL that I'm sure he wasn't necessarily hoping for. Especially when considering he can't protect his players from incident with the law. While the general public for the most part applaud Commissioner Goodell for his stance, the back lash has negatively effected the league in general, with respect to the image of the players by bring more attention to the bad apples. While Goodell's intentions were to spin a more positive light on the players by enforcing strict discipline to detour off-field incidents. Joe Public's initial response to any player that has any incidents are "he's a thug" or "he should be suspended" and they often judge the whole rather than the parts.

As I have stated in previous post, Goodell has mistakenly opened Pandora's Box with his cowboy tactics and has easily captured the crown for the biggest off-season move in the NFL with the adjustments in the NFL Personal Conduct Policy. I have no doubt that in the long run, the media fever will subside, but as of this moment the temperature is high.

[YoHoChecko]

The most significant move of the offseason absolutely has to be the trade and signing of Matt Scaub from the Falcons to the Texans. In one fell swoop, two franchises made immense gambles on their futures (especially at QB). One made a huge financial investment in a mostly unknown player, while the other left itself with little in terms of a plan B for its troubled star QB whose play has hardly earned him such job security. No other move this offseason has had such a significant impact on TWO clubs at "the most important position on the field" for both the short and long-term future.

Particularly in light of the indictment of Michael Vick and the release of David Carr (whose signing with Carolina could be listed as a possibly significant dominoe effect of the Schaub trade), these gambles will assuredly be a major factor in whether both of these franchises sink or swim. Especially in a wide-open NFC (and NFC South), Atlanta's gamble could impact this season's playoff picture.

Furthermore, the second-round draft picks surrendered from the Texans to the Falcons must be included in the assessment of the magintude of this move, already netting the Falcons Justin Blalock. Another raft impact is the first-round swap of picks. After the draft, many usually-credible sources cited the desire of the Texans to select WR/KR Ted Ginn. As we all now know, Ginn was selected 9th--one spot ahead of the Texans. This continues the ripple effect of this trade to impact the Dolphins, who would have been unable to select Ginn at #9, and possibly shakes up the entirety of the draft order. One can hardly argue that is not a fairly significant impact from the Schaub trade.

This whole introduction doesn't even get into the financial impact made by the major contract Schaub received, which upped the ante for many upcoming free agent QBs with more proven success than Schaub at the time of his signing.

In short, this one trade determined the fate--long and short term--of two franchises directly, including differences beyond the QB position, had indirect effect on several other teams, the NFL draft, the financial layout of the league's top-paid position and basically every aspect of the league. While it may not have an immediate impact on determining the next Super Bowl champion, it certainly has had a more profound and far-reaching on-field impact than any other move made this offseason.

[jjflr]

The biggest off-season move was far and away the signing of Nate Clements by the San Francisco 49ers. Whether or not you believe he is worth the amount of money the Niners paid him, there is no doubting he is an INCREDIBLE upgrade to a secondary that needed a veteran impact player.

The weakest link on the Niners team was becoming increasingly apparent .......... cornerback .............. the Niners took the necessary step to shore up their weakest position by signing the best cornerback (without question) available and they did it quickly, acting very early in free agency.

The swiftness in which they acted to lock up the best CB available (and possibly the best player overall in free agency) shores up a secondary in need of a hard-hitting and good-cover corner, but even more importantly, sends the message to the team, their fans, and the rest of the league, that the 49ers are DONE re-building and now they are adding the final pieces to the puzzle to return to contention.

The 49ers signing of the biggest name in free agency not only immediately helps their defense take the next step, but it sends a very important message about the future of this team. This was easily the biggest off-season move in the NFL this year.

[jjflr]

Now that the 3 opening statements have been made, I will respond to my 2 counterparts selections.

1) I'm not sure how the league enforcing their conduct policy will help a team get to the playoffs. I don't understand this selection as it pertains to the topic.

2) The Matt Schaub trade was big 'news' but I don't see any way, shape, or form that the transaction is going to help EITHER team get to the playoffs, short-term or long-term.

Matt Schaub is nothing more than an unproven back-up. He has TWO career starts, yes, TWO ........... the one good game against the Patriots (which, by the way, the Falcons still lost) and a really bad start against the Saints (which the Falcons lost) ...............

His lifetime passer rating is a whopping 69.2

He has as many INT's as TD's ...........

AND Schaub completed a FEWER % of passes in the same system as Michael Vick, who is criticized for his lack of accuracy ................ WOW ............

Matt Schaub is NOT an upgrade over David Carr and will do nothing to improve the Texans hopes ................. heck, in my opinion, the free agent signing of Ahman Green is a bigger impact for the Texans and their hopes of playoff contention .............

And as far as the Falcons, they got a couple of extra draft picks out of the deal but it won't make or break this team.

In summary, my counterpart points out the 'highlights' of the trade, including salary implications and Vick's dog-fighting problems, which weren't even known prior to the trade, but none of these factor into the playoff implications of either team ................. was it a 'gamble' on the part of the Texans ? Sure, but just because an organization makes a bad trade doesn't mean the other team is automatically going to win the Super Bowl.

I believe my esteemed colleague simply picked the most 'interesting' off-season move for discussion's sake .................. he failed to select the off-season move that will catapult a team into contention and change their fate ...................... This was simply the Texans making another bad organizational move and the Falcons getting a couple of draft picks, neither one of which is going to catapult either team into the playoffs ................ nothing earth-shattering ..............

[YoHoChecko]

Originally Posted by jjflr

The biggest off-season move was far and away the signing of Nate Clements by the San Francisco 49ers. Whether or not you believe he is worth the amount of money the Niners paid him, there is no doubting he is an INCREDIBLE upgrade to a secondary that needed a veteran impact player.

The weakest link on the Niners team was becoming increasingly apparent .......... cornerback .............. the Niners took the necessary step to shore up their weakest position by signing the best cornerback (without question) available and they did it quickly, acting very early in free agency.

The swiftness in which they acted to lock up the best CB available (and possibly the best player overall in free agency) shores up a secondary in need of a hard-hitting and good-cover corner, but even more importantly, sends the message to the team, their fans, and the rest of the league, that the 49ers are DONE re-building and now they are adding the final pieces to the puzzle to return to contention.

The 49ers signing of the biggest name in free agency not only immediately helps their defense take the next step, but it sends a very important message about the future of this team. This was easily the biggest off-season move in the NFL this year.

How can a CB be "one of the final pieces to contention" when their offense has been abysmal for much of the past two years, and just as it started taking a step forward, they lose their proven-successful offensive coordinator. In fact, I'd argue that acquiring Clements wasn't even the biggest move on this team--but that losing Norv Turner in Alex Smith's third season is.

However, by choosing a simple player addition as your "most important move of the offseason," you have to consider how much impact premiere CBs make on wins and losses. Let's examine that aspect:

Denver Broncos before Champ Bailey: 10-6
Denver Broncos after Champ Bailey: 10-6

Minnestoa Vikings before Antoine Winfield: 9-7
Minnesota Vikings after Antoine Winfield: 8-8

New York Jets before Ty Law: 10-6
New York Jets after Ty Law: 4-12

Kansas City before Ty Law: 9-7
Kansas City after Ty Law: 8-8

Detroit Lions before Dre Bly: 3-13
Detroit Lions after Dre Bly: 5-11

Dallas before Deion Sanders: 12-4
Dallas after Deion Sanders: 12-4

Need I go on? Elite corners change teams all the time. Very often, it is considered a major step toward a reversal of fortune for a team or for a last step toward improvement--be it playoffs or elite. Yet only in two examples that I can think of has a big-name corner changing teams led to an improvement in wins the next year--and one was from three wins to five. I will grant you that in 1993-1994, the 49ers improved from 10 to 13 wins after sining Deion Sanders--but it should be noted that they were already a playoff regular. And even so, that means you have to go back 14 years since a marquis CB has led to a noteable increase in wins--and that was one of the 3 best CBs of all time on an already-elite team.

Suffice it to say, I can't imagine the signing of a CB by a team still struggling on offense actually having much impact on the league at all--let alone being its most important offseason move.

Originally Posted by jjflr

Now that the 3 opening statements have been made, I will respond to my 2 counterparts selections.

1) I'm not sure how the league enforcing their conduct policy will help a team get to the playoffs. I don't understand this selection as it pertains to the topic.

2) The Matt Schaub trade was big 'news' but I don't see any way, shape, or form that the transaction is going to help EITHER team get to the playoffs, short-term or long-term.

Matt Schaub is nothing more than an unproven back-up. He has TWO career starts, yes, TWO ........... the one good game against the Patriots (which, by the way, the Falcons still lost) and a really bad start against the Saints (which the Falcons lost) ...............

His lifetime passer rating is a whopping 69.2

He has as many INT's as TD's ...........

AND Schaub completed a FEWER % of passes in the same system as Michael Vick, who is criticized for his lack of accuracy ................ WOW ............

Matt Schaub is NOT an upgrade over David Carr and will do nothing to improve the Texans hopes ................. heck, in my opinion, the free agent signing of Ahman Green is a bigger impact for the Texans and their hopes of playoff contention .............

And as far as the Falcons, they got a couple of extra draft picks out of the deal but it won't make or break this team.

In summary, my counterpart points out the 'highlights' of the trade, including salary implications and Vick's dog-fighting problems, which weren't even known prior to the trade, but none of these factor into the playoff implications of either team ................. was it a 'gamble' on the part of the Texans ? Sure, but just because an organization makes a bad trade doesn't mean the other team is automatically going to win the Super Bowl.

I believe my esteemed colleague simply picked the most 'interesting' off-season move for discussion's sake .................. he failed to select the off-season move that will catapult a team into contention and change their fate ...................... This was simply the Texans making another bad organizational move and the Falcons getting a couple of draft picks, neither one of which is going to catapult either team into the playoffs ................ nothing earth-shattering ..............

Brace yourselves, ladies and gentlemen, because what I'm about to say may be earth-shattering: I agree, JJ. You're right. My move might not propel either team to the playoffs. In fact, it might have the opposite impact on BOTH teams. But the move will have more of an impact on team wins and losses for at least two teams than any other move made this off-season. And keep in mind that if one team is struggling, that impacts every team the 13 teams on its schedule--but specifically impacts division races.

By making a move at QB, the Texans have drastically altered their fate immeiately and over the next few years. By electing to sink or swim with Michael Vick, the Falcons have drastically altered their fate immediately and over the next few years. For better or for worse, this one move accomplished both of those things.

By the way, where I do disagree is with the notion that things that took place after the trade shouldn't be considered as consequences of the trade. Vick's indictment CERTAINLY plays a role in evaluating this trade.

As for Schaub, you have your opinion of him, and others have theirs. The point is that we do not know. I will not turn this into a debate over how he will fare, because we can't tell. This sort of journey into the unknown at QB has worked (Hasselbeck, Dellhome--for a little while), and has failed. But a change at QB is a far more significant change than a change at CB. For instance, in my earlier lists when the Jets got Ty Law and still had a huge drop off... it was because of a QB injury.

Schaub might lift the Texans to new heights... or he might fall on his face worse than David Carr. That's an important move. And I think that one move that leaves two teams financially and practically committed to highly questionable QBs can have a pretty significant impact on how the season plays itself out. And again, not to mention the other impacts mentioned in my opening statement

I'll get to dbuilder soon..... work awaits.

[dbuilder]

JJFLR, if you read the topic,

What is the one single-most important off-season move made in the NFL this year?

Didn't see anything in that question about leading a team to the play-offs.

Nate Clements was the most impactful off-season move? Maybe it was the most impactful on the Niner Wallet, but that's about it. Don't get me wrong, without question, Nate Clements is an excellent football player, but I have never seen a CB come in and immediately change the atmosphere of a franchise. And if Nate Clements were the corner that could impose immediate change, why didn't he have that impact for Buffalo. While he is definitely an upgrade at the position for SF there were more significate moves made in the off-season than the move to acquire Clements.



I'm just not sure how the signing of a perenial back-up QB can be the most significate off-season move. Yeah Matt Schaab played well in pre-season games and in spot duty for the Falcons, but so has Quinn Gray. Yoho, I understand your angle with this given the recent events in ATL, but to imply that Schaub's presence or lack thereof will be significate is speculative at best.

The sure bet for the most important off-season moves is with out question the NFL Personal Conduct Policy. Not only does every single player in the NFL have to be on high alert because of there celebrity and lifestyle, the coaches and owners have been impacted on there acquistion strategy in free-agency and who and when they draft a "character issue" guy on draft day. These are just a few examples of just how impactful the New NFL Personal Conduct Policy has been this off-season.

[YoHoChecko]

Originally Posted by dbuilder

Without question, the biggest off-season move has to be the New Commissioner, Roger Goodell's, inhanced position on the NFL Personal Conduct Policy.

With football taking the centerstage as America's favorite past-time, Roger Goodell's new disciplinary strategy has brought a focus on the NFL that I'm sure he wasn't necessarily hoping for. Especially when considering he can't protect his players from incident with the law. While the general public for the most part applaud Commissioner Goodell for his stance, the back lash has negatively effected the league in general, with respect to the image of the players by bring more attention to the bad apples. While Goodell's intentions were to spin a more positive light on the players by enforcing strict discipline to detour off-field incidents. Joe Public's initial response to any player that has any incidents are "he's a thug" or "he should be suspended" and they often judge the whole rather than the parts.

As I have stated in previous post, Goodell has mistakenly opened Pandora's Box with his cowboy tactics and has easily captured the crown for the biggest off-season move in the NFL with the adjustments in the NFL Personal Conduct Policy. I have no doubt that in the long run, the media fever will subside, but as of this moment the temperature is high.

I want to point out a couple things here:

-first, I think it is an error in judgment to use the Debate Game finals as yet another platform through which you attempt to drum up pity for the poor, victimized players who have to obey the laws and not be multiple-offenders in order to keep their jobs. You are in the minority pool of thought on this issue, and thus you are giving yourself an uphill battle of debate.

-secondly, you point out that Goddell's intentions were to spin the players and the league in a more positive light... you readily admit that he is being appluaded for his efforts by the public, and then you say that it has had a negative effect and a backlash? If his intent was to enhance the image of the league in the public eye, and the public, in general, is pleased with his actions, I cannot accept the argument that it has done harm to the league.

-That brings me to the most important aspect. I will sum up, here, the point that I am getting from you. 1)The conduct policy is the most important thing of this offseason. 2) It is important because it has brought more media attention to the bad apples in the league and that will create a "backlash. 3) The conduct policy is a mistake by the commissioner, because of this increased media attention and the backlash it will create.

So you have now left yourself to defend the idea that this policy is important because it will do harm to the league. If the league seems to show no ill effects this season, then you lose the argument. So, based on your arguments thus far, you have to convince the readers here that the league will lose popularity during this season, and THAT is the why the conduct policy is so important.

If you fail to do so, then even if the readers agree that the conduct policy is important, they will see that your reasoning, and thus your debate, is flawed from the start. I will be anxious to see this play out.

Originally Posted by dbuilder

I'm just not sure how the signing of a perenial back-up QB can be the most significate off-season move. Yeah Matt Schaab played well in pre-season games and in spot duty for the Falcons, but so has Quinn Gray. Yoho, I understand your angle with this given the recent events in ATL, but to imply that Schaub's presence or lack thereof will be significate is speculative at best.

Ah good, now onto the defense of my own point. In your own post, you said "I have never seen a CB come in and change the atmosphere of a team," (a point similar to the one I've already made with factual support). Therefore, using that same logic, I can say "I have never seen a change at QB NOT change the atmosphere of a team." It may not change the results. Bad teams can stay bad with QB changes, but what you must admit is that, for better or for worse, the Texans have now tied themselves to a "perrenial back-up QB." Much like the Seahawks did with Hasselbeck, the Saints did with Aaron Brooks and the Panthers did with Jake Delhomme. This move will spell success or failure for the franchise for years.

However, the point my counterparts (good word choice, JJ; I'm stealing it) are missing is that the most significant (direct) impact of the trade is not Schaub's arrival in Houston, but his departure in Atlanta. The same move that tied Houston to Schaub also renewed the vows between the Falcons and Vick. They are now left thin at the QB position, and Vick is facing immense media heat due to his involvement in felonies. Even before Goodell's conduct policy, this would be a media firestorm.

But beyond the media, the on-field fate of the Falcons has been drastically altered. The NFC South is a wide-open division, and one move dropped a contender into increasingly precarious waters. That was the trade of Matt Schaub.

Another oversight by my counterparts is the game of musical chairs created by this move. The ripple effects that in some NFL cities might equate to small tidal waves.

Goodell's policy is not going to cripple the league's popularity, as implied by Dbuilder. If the 49ers hadn't signed Clements, then it would change the offseason for probably whichever team did sign him, and not much more.

Had Schaub not beed traded, here are some of the dominoes that might have fallen:

the Texans would be looking for a veteran QB--would it have been Jake Plummer? Jeff Garcia? (Bucs now impacted). Would they have traded for Culpepper or Trent Green? (Dolphins now impacted).

The Texans would have selected 8th and the Falcons, 10th. Would the Texans have taken Ted Ginn, as was widely reported after the draft? Then who would the Dolphins have selected? A DT? or maybe Brady Quinn? (Browns now impacted). The whole of the draft order could be altered, including in the second round, when All-American OG Justin Blalock went to the Falcons instead of... well, anywhere else.

And as I have alluded to before, the contract signed by Schaub will have a HUGE impact on next offseason, as players like Marc Bulger, Byron Leftwich and Tony Romo seek contract extensions. If an unknown back-up gets such a significant chunk of change, the ante has been significantly raised for these starting QBs. This could certainly lead to some QBs changing teams that otherwise wouldn't have.

I know this seems like a slippery-slope mentality, and that it is mostly speculative. I am fully aware of that. But that being said, when a team has a question at the QB position, it must get answered. The QB position is of such importance to teams that a change impacting two teams' starting QBs immediately causes a game of musical chairs for QBs that can stretch around the league. Had Schaub not been dealt, SOMEONE would be brought in as Houston's starter, and that would ripple out around the off-season transactions everywhere.

I can understand some hesitancy in buying into such a claim, but when it is thought through, it becomes clear that several teams around the league have different depth charts at QB--and some beyond--because this trade was made. When one move impacts the most important position in football for multiple teams, it has to be given more credence than a simple free agent signing at a position that rarely impacts the win-loss column.... or than a prediction that the commissioner has created a backlash that will inflict harm to the game's popularity.