Debate Game - Semifinals - Group One

[ruuuuudiii]

Congratulations on advancing from the first round, now it's only three of you, and only the winner is guaranteed a spot in the finals. The runner-up has to have more votes than the runner-up from the other group to enter the finals.

Remember the rules.
* I will post the topic, you will then make your opening statement
* You have until 8 pm Eastern Time on Friday to make the opening statement, after that the debate will begin.
* If all three participants have made their opening statement before the deadline, you may begin debating at anytime
* You will then have about 4 days to debate the topic at hand
* Remember, the idea is to win the debate by ginving the best arguments, both by supporting your idea and shooting down the others
* Voters, please vote for the best debater, not the person you agree the most with




The participants in this group are ...

YoHoChecko


BlackMallard


jjflr

Good luck and have fun.

[ruuuuudiii]

The NFL disbanded after the 2006-07 season, and it’s now time to select for the hall of fame. Having already made the hall on the first ballot were Emmitt Smith, Marshall Faulk and LaDanian Tomlinson. Now, on the 2nd ballot, there is a maximum of one player per position that can enter the hall per year. So, who is the next running back to enter the hall?

[jjflr]

(Note: Since you have inducted Tomlinson, Smith, and Faulk, I am assuming that you have waived the mandatory waiting period. Therefore, ALL running backs are eligible, including the active running backs from 2002-2006)

Looking at the running backs who are retired or active that are not in the hall of fame, it includes several phenomenal talents. Eddie George, Tiki Barber, Roger Craig, Terrell Davis, Jermone Bettis, Herschel Walker, and Edgerrin James, along with the 3 that were already inducted under this scenario (Tomlinson, Faulk, and Smith). They were all excellent professional running backs in their own respects. Only one can be chosen though, and the one I have chosen is clearly above the rest.

The ironic thing, to me, is that only 1 of the 3 running backs already inducted according to this scenario (Emmitt Smith), deserves to be inducted before MY nomination, Curtis Martin.

Martin rushed for over 1,000 yards in his first 10 professional seasons, a feat previously accomplished only by Barry Sanders, and he would have been the first NFL back to make it happen in his first 11 seasons were it not for injury. He was a 5-time pro-bowler and was the NFL Offensive Rookie of the Year in 1995.

Martin ranks fourth overall among NFL running backs in rushing yards (only Barry Sanders, Walter Payton, and Emmitt Smith rushed for more yards) with 14,101 and he also posted 484 receptions out of the backfield for another 3329 yards. Martin was a multi-dimensional back, able to grind out tough yards running the ball, catch the ball in the flat, or find the endzone. Martin finished his career with 100 touchdowns. He knew how to finish the job.

Looking at those staggering statistics is impressive. However, Martin’s best qualities could not be measured on a stat sheet. He had a ‘team first’ mentality and a classy personality on the field. He was a true professional. After each one of Martin’s 100 touchdowns, he would simply hand the ball to the umpire (ala Barry Sanders). When he would grind out another tough first down on 3rd and 2, he would calmly walk back to the huddle instead of creating a 30-second presentation about himself in the middle of the field like so many of today’s players do.

Curtis Martin played the game to help his team win. It wasn’t about himself. He wasn’t looking for personal awards and records. He did whatever was asked of him and whatever would help his team win, a trait lost with too many of today’s players. He stayed out of trouble off-of-the field and was (and still is) a tremendous role model for children, other players, and, in reality, all of us.

Curtis Martin is the most-deserving running back to be inducted after Emmitt Smith, hands down, and should have been included in the group that was already inducted under the scenario. He is a sure-fire hall-of-famer.

[Blackmallard]

When I think of a Hall of Famer what I want to see is a player who was the number one best player at his position for a sustained period, and who's career had an impact on the game. Really all of my sure-fire slam dunk RB's are already in for this scenario, Smith is the all time leading rusher, Faulk and Tomlinson were clearly the best backs in the league during their peaks. The rest of the candidates are marginal in my opinion.

Edgerin James has the most yards from scrimmage per game since Jim Brown, but with his move to Arizona the season before the Colts won the Superbowl he does not quite fit.

Curtis Martin has Hall of Fame career type numbers, but I never considered him to be on the same level as the very best backs in the league. His durability was remarkable, but he never had a period of sustained greatness.

Jerome Bettis is in many ways similar to Curtis Martin, Hall of Fame career numbers, never sustained a period as one of the dominant backs. Bettis however should be inducted over Martin as the greatest "big" back of all time, and as a representative of the 2005 world champion Steelers.

Bettis is a six time pro-bowler, is top five in career rushes and yards, 10th in TD's, averaged 4.4 or better YPC four different times, and lead the league in rushing in '97. He went for over 1400 yards and was the offensive rookie of the year in 93 with the Rams.

Bettis is also the best big back of all time. Backs over 250 pounds do not tend to be able to have long careers as feature backs, they quickly become short yardage specialists, yet teams continue to value big backs because they contribute things that do not show up well on a statline. Bettis combined the ability to become a human battering ram to pick up one yard on the goalline or on 3rd and short with the running skills to be one of the most prolific feature backs of all time. Curtis Martin is Emmit Smith Lite, Edge and Tiki are great versatile backs who are just not quite as great and versatile as LaDanian Tomlinson, Bettis is the best back of all time cut from his mold.

It would also be a travesty to entirely exclude an entire championship team from the Hall of Fame, and Bettis is the only player from the champion 2005 Steelers who fits the bill. Hines Ward for instance only cracks the top 50 in one category, receptions, and never lead the league the way Bettis did. Bettis did not earn his way into the Hall from that season, but he did contribute greatly to their success and was the leader of that team. He was a feared part of a one two punch and he became the starter for a time he showed that he could still carry the load as a starter/featured back.

Lastly, the biggest argument against Bettis is his career YPC, 3.9. He showed he could average good YPC, nearing 5 YPC in multiple seasons, but the type of situations he ran in dragged down his career average. Remember when he had five rushes for one yard and three touchdowns at one point in a season? Thats getting his job done as well as it can be done, but does not look good in the YPC department.

Of the possiblilities I think James was the most dominant at his best, Martin had (barely) the best career numbers, but Bettis is the strongest overall package combining excellent career numbers, league leading performances, the heart of a champion, a Hall of Fame caliber nickname (The Bus), and can lay claim to being the greatest of all time in his niche.

[Blackmallard]

I'm going to be leaving for Florida tomorrow morning, I'll be on the road till Sunday, but I might be able to get online once I get to the hotel to continue this debate, if not suffice to say that my opening statement is 100% correct.

[YoHoChecko]

It's unfair to make everyone start over. JJ and BM have very solid opening statements... I will select a new player and post it tonight. Again, apologies for the confusion. I thought I had found a loophole that gave me a solid candidate.

My only request is that we can delete the posts after our opening statements so that when readers sift through the thread, they aren't subject to all of our discussion of semantics, and then I will simply edit my opening statement thread tonight, and the debate will convene.

Again, sorry for the mess and the delay.

Have a fantastic weekend everyone... like I said, I'll post something by tonight

[ruuuuudiii]

Done, thanks.

I'll will give you guys til Tuesday to continue the debate.

Thanks.

[ruuuuudiii]

Come on guys, I thought the confusion is over. You have until midnight on Wednesday to finish, now get going.

[YoHoChecko]

In what is deemed the "modern era" by the Hall of fame itself (1950s on), only 25 RBs have been elected to the Hall of Fame. That's less than one every two years. It's an incredibly elite honor to be elected into the Hall of Fame. Under the supposition that the league is disbanded, and only one RB can be elected in each year, it darn well better be a great RB.

Curtis Martin and Jerome Bettis both have had long, fantastic careers. But the fact of the matter is neither of those two players were ever "the best in the game" during their eras. Yes, they have elite statistical careers. Yes, they had several seasons in which they were "among the best." But I can't recall ever hearing an argument made that Jerome Bettis was the best running back in the game... or that Curtis Martin was.

However, for one Hall of Fame finalist who is considered to be on the bubble for entry, that is not the case. Terrell Davis, during his injury-shortened career, dominated in a way that neither of the other candidates approached. He is an elite member of the 2,000-yard-season club. Each other back to accomplish that feat is enshrined. That isn't a coincidence.

Terrell Davis also has a Super Bowl MVP to his name. He was a strong player from his rookie season, becoming the lowest-drafted player ever to rush for 1,000 yards as a rookie. In year two, he dominated, and cemented himself among the game's elite. In year three, he dominated even more, led his team to a Super Bowl, provided John Elway with his happy swan song (the first time), and in year four, he hit that 2,000 yard mark, and finished his string of dominance.

Yes, it was only 4 years. And yes, it was only three years of dominance. But in that short period of time, Terrell Davis found more individual success, was a more dominant player, and led his team to more team success than Bettis or Martin could ever claim.

If there is a waiting list to get into the Hall of Fame after the league disbands, I'd much prefer it to allow in true greatness before rewarding long-lasting, very solid play. That's why Art Monk isn't in the Hall of Fame (like it or not).

[jjflr]

Great opening statements by all 3 of our semi-finalists. However, my candidate carries a lot more weight for HOF consideration.

Terrell Davis will never make it into the HOF for the simple fact that he could not sustain greatness. He was a flash in the pan and the NFL HOF is not for 'flashes'.

IF the NFL grants access to Davis, they will be opening a can of worms and will then be forced to consider OTHER flash in the pans who have posted a great season or 2 such as George Rogers, Jamal Anderson, Ricky Williams, Christian Okoye, Priest Holmes, and Barry Foster. NONE of these players are HOF-worthy and NEITHER is Terrell Davis.

The HOF is for greatness which is sustained. My counterpart points out that his candidate was greater than mine, albeit for a shorter period of time. If that is the case, shouldn't his candidate (Davis) have more rushing titles than mine (C-Mart) ? He doesn't. They both have 1.

In addition, Davis's post-season success loses a lot of punch considering the extreme talent that he had around him FAR surpassed any that C-Mart was given (Elway vs. Bledsoe, for example). AND throw in the fact that it soon became apparent that Denver could run successfully with WHOMEVER they had in the backfield and T.D. becomes a very small man, definitely NOT Hall-of-Fame material.

How does Bettis compare with some of the same points above? Not very well either. Bettis had ZERO rushing titles in his long 13-year career, and the 'post-season success' that my counterpart mentioned did not exist. Jerome Bettis did not play a huge role on-the-field for the championship Steeler team. He was dinged up for most of the regular season and then they TRIED to feed him the ball over and over during the post-season to make him the hero, but he simply didn't do much to help them. They had a LOT more success feeding the ball to Willie Parker .

PARKER was their MVP running back during their incredible post-season run. Jerome just stood there with his goofy grin while the rest of the players said they 'wanted to win one for Jerome'. Sorry, but I don't think they're going to elect Timmy the Parapalegic to the pro football HOF just because he 'inspires' the 2007 Indianapolis Colts to another Super Bowl victory.

The HOF is reserved for the greatest ON-THE-FIELD players (heck, they allowed O.J. Simpson to remain in the HOF so they obviously don't care what someone's effect is on society or the league off-the-field). Curtis Martin did it ON-THE-FIELD and for an extended period of time.

Curtis Martin played in different systems with different O-lines and different QB's and still EVERY SINGLE YEAR was productive. He WAS the difference-maker and he personally MADE his teams better.

In fact, throwing out his injury-shortened final year, Curtis Martin finished in the Top 10 in the league in rushing in 7 of his first 9 years in the league. This feat has only been eclipsed by Emmitt Smith, Barry Sanders, and Walter Payton, regarded by many as the 3 greatest running backs of all time.

THAT is dominance sustained.