PSH ULTIMATE CHALLENGE - Debate Group 2

[ruuuuudiii]

Alright guys, welcome to the 2nd part of the PSH Ultimate Challenge. Here you get to show off your debating skills. How persuasive can you be? When voting, you should consider who made the best argument, not necessarily who you agreed with.

With all trades up and the polls up in the trade tournament, that's all now in the hands of the voters. So if you haven't already, please vote.

This is the first of 2 groups of 6, based on current standings after the trade tournament. One finalist is in this group, the other two are in Group 2.

After I post the debate, you will have until noon on Wednesday to make your opening statement. There will be no debating during opening statements. The Debate will open at noon (Eastern) on Wednesday and go for about 4 days.

The debate will be put to a vote after those 4 days, at which point there will be no discussing the debate until the polls have closed. Once we have determined the winners, the topic will be up for debate by everybody, but not before.

The top 3 from each group advance to the 2nd round, and the top 3 from that round are in the final. In case of a tie, I will be the tie-breaking vote, and I will explain my vote in detail in the thread.


The participants in Group 2 are.

jjflr
Weston
Jwalk
william
DBLOCK
sf86
BlackMallard

I want to thank Weston for providing the topics for the first round.

[ruuuuudiii]

Your topic is.......

Who is the most overrated player in the NFL and why?

Remember, there could be a LOT of differing opinions on this topic, so how well you make your case while dismissing your opponent's should make the difference come vote time.




You may now post your opening statement. THERE WILL BE NO DEBATING ANOTHER PERSON'S OPENING STATEMENT UNTIL NOON ON WEDNESDAY. Any statements you make against another person between now and then will be deleted by either me, Rock, or Wolv.

Good luck!

[jjflr]

This is almost too easy ............ "Who Is The Most Overrated Player In The NFL?" ...............

It is OBVIOUSLY Brett Favre and here is why .............

Brett Favre's career is becoming eerily reminiscint to Johnny Unitas .......... all Favre needs to do now is play a completely uninspired final year of his career in San Diego and his duplication of Johnny U's career will be complete ..........

At one time, Brett Favre was the gunslinger of the league ............. he cocked his powerful right arm game after game and amazed us week after week, even bringing the Lombardi trophy back to Wisconsin during one magical season ........... those days have long since passed and now Favre is nothing more than a mere shadow of himself and the last 2 seasons have proven it ............

Favre has done more to hurt his team's chances of winning during the past 2 seasons than to help them. The Packers record over that span is 12-20 (in a weak division and a weak conference no less). Not only does he no longer possess the physical skills on the field that he once had, he seems to have lost his mental edge and is no longer a good leader to the team.

He has been involved in on-field and off-field squabbles the past couple of seasons that are not helpful to the cohesiveness of the group. After the Packers drafted Aaron Rodgers, Favre basically stated that he was not getting paid to be a mentor and seemed very defensive about Rodgers even being on the roster. Then, during THIS offseason, Favre allegedly had several harsh words about the Packers organization and their lack of improvement.

That doesn't sound like leadership material to me and the team's results on the field back me up.

Also backing me up are some staggering statistics:

Over the past THREE seasons, Favre's TD passes have fallen EVERY year.

Over the past THREE seasons, Favre's completion percentage has fallen EVERY year.

AND Favre has failed to throw more TD's than INT's the last 2 seasons.

For the icing on the cake, Brett Favre finished the 2006 regular season with a LOWER passer rating than Alex Smith, Michael Vick, Eli Manning, David Carr, David Garrard, AND REX GROSSMAN !!!

In conclusion, Favre has hung on too long. HE thinks he can still do it. The Packers management thinks he can still do it. The Packers coaches think he can still do it. The Packer faithful think he can still do it. And even a lot of so-called 'experts' think he can still do it.

I've got news for everyone. He can't. Not only have his physical skills diminished to the point of embarrassment, but Favre has been unable to harken wisdom from his years of experience to be, at the very least, a strong leader in the locker room. For people to still rate him as one of the better QB's in this league is a fallacy of epic proportions.

[Blackmallard]

Ok sports fans, get out your hater-aid and get ready find out who is overrated.

I'm not going to waste your time by picking on some old fart who was great in his day but is now past his time.

I'm not burst some hype bubble that has already busted, or sling mud on someone who just isn't that likeable.

I'm taking down a well liked player in his prime who is considered one of the top at his position. When you look at what he has done on the field though he hasn't come close to earning the hall of fame MVP type chops he gets from fans and the Media.

Thats right,Steve Smith of the Carolina Panthers has been grossly overrated.

The HYPE: He's the best reciever in the league, he should be considered for the MVP. He gets thrown right in there with real elite recievers and future hall of famers whenever the topic comes up. Plenty of people argued that he should have had the MVP in 2005 and made the same claim through the first half of 2006.

The TRUTH:Smith has had ONE season in which he was a truly elite reciever and played like a potential hall of famer. That would be great if he were only four seasons in, but Steve is entering his seventh season. We have already seen him at his very best and he'll only be that way about two more years tops. He's miles behind where the real elite hall of fame recievers like Terrell Owens, Marvin Harrison, Torry Holt, and Randy Moss were at this point in their careers, and he will soon be past the age where any of them were able to put up 1500 yard type seasons. He's already past what were probably his best years, and they weren't all that good.

I have nothing bad to say about his 2005 season, he was an elite player that year. Everyone got a little over excited, but thats perfectly normal when a player has the best year of anyone at his position. What makes him overrated is that people expect him to continue have that same sort of success, and its not going to happen. 2005 was the anomaly, the norm is for him to be limited by his chronic hamstring problems and nebulous supporting cast.

His impact on the rest of that offense is WAY overrated. He's not going to turn the people surrounding him into pro-bowlers, they have to actually have talent. When he's on he can have a huge game, it still doesn't make Jake Delhomme and Deshaun Foster stop sucking when they are in the mood to suck.

Smith does not back safties off the way, say, Randy Moss did in his prime or the Harrison/Wayne combo do now. He also is not a great goalline asset, about the best play he has there is a reverse or end around. T.O., Moss, and Harrison have all been great goalline options.

He's a great return man, but I don't see how thats going to be a factor since they don't have him doing returns except in desperation.

He has the potential to be one of the top guys in the league any given season, but so do lots of recievers. He has NOT been anything like a dominant force though and he HAS gotten that credit. I can't think of anyone in the NFL who became "elite" by doing so little, which is why he's my number one overrated player.

Some NUMBERS:

My whole case is that his name gets thrown around with truly great players who actually dominated, and he hasn't. To show you what I mean, here are some numbers that players earned their chops with, and as you can see Smith's don't come close to stacking up. He snuck into the hall of fame discussions when so far he's a one-hit wonder:

Harrison's prime 1999-2002:
Rec Yds TDs
1999 115 1663 12
2000 102 1413 14
2001 109 1524 15
2002 143 1722 11 (sets reception record)

Owen's prime:2000-2003

2000 97 1451 13
2001 93 1412 16
2002 100 1300 13
2003 80 1102 9 (note he only played one full season in these years, not making an excuse, these seasons don't need to be excused)

Moss's prime:

1998 69 1313 17 (he averaged 19 yards a catch!)
1999 80 1413 11
2000 77 1437 15
2001 82 1233 10

I could do Torry Holt's here, but you get the idea. Holt isn't as much of and endzone target so his TD numbers are a lot lower than the other three, otherwise its basically more of the same.

Steve Smiths Prime?

2003 88 1110 7
2004 basically missed due to injury. He did play one game, it wasn't bad.
2005 103 1563 12
2006 83 1166 8
2007 ????????????????????????????????????????
2008 ????????????????????????????????????????

See how most elite players had to be dominant consistently over a course of years to gain that status and Smith did not? Incidentally the players I listed all had some of their best seasons after the years I listed as their "prime", so its not like they faded after merely four dominant seasons. Smith has one dominant type season, and two that wouldn't look bad at all on an elite player's resume if they were surrounded by more league leading, eye-popping seasons instead of a bunch of ???????????

Smith = overrated.

He won't sniff the hall of fame or be compared to the great recievers of his time when we can look back on his career with 20/20 hindsight.

[Jack Bauer]

When I see "overrated player" one player comes to my mind instantly, and it's probably not who you think. Tony Romo is the man I think of INSTANTLY. He did awesome when he first came out last year, then faltered towards the end of the season and the playoffs, but with only seeing him for not even a full season I cannot judge him until I see him this year. Another one people think of is Michael Vick, but not me. Kellen Winslow Junior is my pick for most overrated player in the NFL.

Winslow was highly regarded as not only the best tight end, but also the best player for the 2004 draft. It was highly speculated that he could even the first tight end to EVER be drafted number one overall in the draft. He didn't hit first, nor second through fifth, but instead he was drafted sixth overall by the Cleveland Browns.

People think Winslow was some kind of god and that he would be some kind of soldier, I mean savior to the Browns. He lasted all but 14 games his rookie season due to a broken fibula. He amassed an outstanding 5 receptions for an even greater accomplishment of fifty yards in those two games, hardly savior or first round draftee like. Larry Fitzgerald, a wide out, yes, was picked third by the Cardinals and had 9 receptions for 106 yards through his first two games, Chris Cooley who was drafted in the third round didn't find much success in the receiving yards department, but he was the first tight end to record his first career touchdown before the other five tight ends that were drafted before him. Winslow sat out the rest of the year and had two surgeries on his leg. Things were looking up for Kellen as he was expected to have a full recovery. Then May 1st 2005 rolled around.

Kellen was under a stipulation in his contract, as are many NFL players, that restricted him from taking part in activities other than football that may cause bodily harm, if you think about it, thats quite a few things. But that did not stop Kellen from getting on a sports bike days after he had just received his learners permit. Kellen hit a curb and tore ligaments in his knee and got a staph infection that sidelined him for the entire season.

2006 was somewhat of an up year for Kellen, he stayed healthy all year, for once, and hauled in 89 receptions for just about 900 yards, but only managed to find the end zone three times that year. Kellen also made a comment that he was was better at 90% than all the other tight ends at 100% I find that to be very funny considering that rookies, Vernon Davis, Tony Scheffler, and Owen Daniels, just to name a few, all either tied or beat Winslow for touchdowns that year, and Scheffler and Daniels were not even considered first round talents, and were not drafted in the first round.

If that was not enough, Winslow also took a cheap shot at Steelers linebacker James Farrior during a game that year.

For all the hype that Winslow brought coming into the NFL he sure has become a dud. I mentioned Chris Cooley earlier and in the fact that he was taken in the same class as Winslow but in the third round. He has gone on to break the Redskins single season record for receptions by a tight end, and has hauled in 165 passes for around 1800 yards in 3 seasons. He also has 19 receiving touchdowns.

Another neat fact about Cooley is that 100 of his receptions have gone for first downs! He keeps the chains moving, and he also has the ability for the deep ball, as 23 of his receptions have gone for 40 yards or more, and 21 have gone for 20 yards to 39 yards. Quite impressive for a third rounder. Cooley has also played in every single one of his 48 NFL regular season games, and his 2 playoff games. Winslow, as a first rounder has failed to even see the field for even half of that with a measly 18. Pathetic.

[ruuuuudiii]

Alright guys, good start.


The debate is now open. Time to convince the voters your argument rules.

To those who haven't yet posted, you can jump in at anytime. You may be behind, but you're certainly not eliminated.

You have about 4 days to debate, then we open it up to a vote. The top 3 move on to the next round.

Good luck

[Weston M]

IF YOU GUYS DONT MIND...PLEASE WAIT TIL TONIGHT TO REPOST YOUR COUNTER-ARGUMENT SO I CAN GET MINE IN THE MIX.

thanks
weston

[GIANT PIGEON]

Most overrated player in the NFL....this came down to 2 players for me. But the player i chose was Willis McGahee of the Baltimore Ravens.

McGahee, who just got a hefty new contract, is not a top RB in this league. Sure you can try to blame the Bills for not giving him enough holes if you want, but theres no excuse for some of the sorry stats McGahee has put up recently.
Lets look at the stats shall we:

2004: 284 carries 1128 yards 4.0 ypc 13 TD's
2005: 325 carries 1247 yards 3.8 ypc 5 TD's
2006: 259 carries 990 yards 3.8 ypc 6 TD's

Now lets take a deeper look into those stats:

2004: 7 games with at least 100 yards, 7 games averaging at least 4 yards per carry, 4 games under 3.5 yards per carry
2005: 5 games with at least 100 yards, 7 games with at least 4 yards per carry, 6 games under 3.5 yards per carry
2006: 2 games with at least 100 yards, 4 games with at least 4 yards per carry, 6 games under 3.5 yards per carry

For Comparisons sake* Edge James had 6 games with at least 4 YPC...in Arizona where the line is much worse than the Bills

McGahee has a career YPC of 3.9, only cracking 4 YPC once(his first year). Tell me is this a man worth a deal of potentially 40 million? Not to me.

Thats all i really got for now

[D BLOCK]

As soon as I read the topic, ONE NAME CAME TO MIND. When I think overrated, I perceive a player who receives an abundance of unwarranted hype, not to mention when a lot of that hype comes from that player himself.

THAT MAN IS DEANGELO HALL, CB ATLANTA FALCONS

Here are his "AMAZING"* stats:

2004: 28 tackles, 0.5 sacks, 2 INT, 4 PASS DEF
2005: 58 tackles, 0 sacks, 6 INT, 4 PASS DEF
2006: 51 tackles, 0 sacks, 4 INT, 12 PASS DEF

Two words: That's all?

This guy gets thrown into "Top 5 CB" conversations, when in his best season he's only recorded 6 INT. This isn't because Hall is a shutdown corner, as a matter of fact Hall cannot shut down anything. Terrell Owens made him look like a 7th-round pick and Hall also allowed the Saints' to score on a lowly Hail-Mary, because he tried to pick it off instead of knocking it down. KNOCK IT DOWN, MORON....IT'S THE END OF THE HALF! For every big play he makes, he gives up another 3 for the opposing offense. He's the product of John Maddens' terrible insight, and ever since that Monday Night Game against Philly, he has been deemed a top corner in this league. He lives on his speed, and nowadays against better and better WRs that isn't enough. His Pro Bowl appearance is beyond me, and his ranking in this league is absurd. The only way to notice that DeAngelo Hall is not only overrated but mediocre, is to watch football instead of listening to it, if you don't hear the hype you'll notice HALL isn't that good at ALL.

* indicates extreme sarcasm

[jjflr]

My esteemed colleagues have made their points. Now I will give you the truth.

Steve Smith -- Picking a player because he has had injury issues doesn't prove anything. WHEN Steve Smith is on the field (30 of 32 games started the last 2 years), he IS worth the hype. Let's look at what this man does when he's on the field compared to the best receivers of our generation in their prime.

Smith catches per game ('05 and '06) = 6.20

Owens catches per game ('01 and '02) = 6.43

Moss catches per game ('00 and '01) = 4.97

Harrison catches per game ('01 and '02) = 7.88

Obviously, Harrison is in a league of his own with his 2 best seasons (one was a record season) but he also has had the luxury of having the best quarterback among these 4 receivers throwing the ball to him every game. Steve Smith has had Jake "Can't Hit The Broad Side Of A Barn" Delhomme throwing the ball to him. Smith is a game-changer and one of the best receivers in the game.

Kellen Winslow Junior -- Wow, this is almost too easy. KW2 proved EVERYONE wrong once he hit the field and showed that he was worth EVERY bit of the hype. This kid is a dominating force and his opponents are going to have trouble covering him for many years. In 2006, his first non-injured year in the NFL, he led the league in receptions for tight ends. And THAT was no small feat, considering the strength of the tight end position right now. He out-distanced phenomenon Antonio Gates, Sure-handed Todd Heap, the tough Jeremy Shockey, and future hall-of-famer Tony Gonzalez.

In fact, KW2's 89 receptions were SO impressive that Gates, Heap, and Shockey have NEVER had a better season and Tony G. has only eclipsed the figure twice in 10 years .............. yes, he's overrated (sarcasm)

Willis McGahee -- I don't know how anyone can even say if this guy is over-rated or under-rated since we haven't seen him run behind a real offensive line. Any Bills fan will tell you how anemic the Bills line has been the last few years and the stats back their opinion up. NO Bills running back has been able to do ANYTHING behind that line.

McGahee has always had the best yards per carry on his team among running backs. THAT proves that he was doing better than any of their other running backs with what they were given.

DeAngelo Hall -- Overrated? The kid is 24 years old, he is the #1 cornerback on a GOOD defense, and he's already been to 2 pro-bowls. And NOW, he's beginning to assert himself as the leader of the defense, taking draft pick Chris Houston under his wing and setting up the DeAngelo Hall Foundation to help the community. This guy isn't Overrated ........... if anything, he's UNDERrated.