PSH ULTIMATE CHALLENGE - Debate Group 1

[ruuuuudiii]

Alright guys, welcome to the 2nd part of the PSH Ultimate Challenge. Here you get to show off your debating skills. How persuasive can you be? When voting, you should consider who made the best argument, not necessarily who you agreed with.

With all trades up and the polls up in the trade tournament, that's all now in the hands of the voters. So if you haven't already, please vote.

This is the first of 2 groups of 6, based on current standings after the trade tournament. One finalist is in this group, the other two are in Group 2.

After I post the debate, you will have until noon on Wednesday to make your opening statement. There will be no debating during opening statements. The Debate will open at noon (Eastern) on Wednesday and go for about 4 days.

The debate will be put to a vote after those 4 days, at which point there will be no discussing the debate until the polls have closed. Once we have determined the winners, the topic will be up for debate by everybody, but not before.

The top 3 from each group advance to the 2nd round, and the top 3 from that round are in the final. In case of a tie, I will be the tie-breaking vote, and I will explain my vote in detail in the thread.


The participants in Group 1 are.

Dan
Azy
YoHo
jcpats
dbuilder
J_Ray


I want to thank Weston for providing the topics for the first round.

[ruuuuudiii]

Your topic is.......

Who is the most underrated player in the NFL and why?

Remember, there could be a LOT of differing opinions on this topic, so how well you make your case while dismissing your opponent's should make the difference come vote time.




You may now post your opening statement. THERE WILL BE NO DEBATING ANOTHER PERSON'S OPENING STATEMENT UNTIL NOON ON WEDNESDAY. Any statements you make against another person between now and then will be deleted by either me, Rock, or Wolv.

Good luck!

[YoHoChecko]

Underrated is a term that has always given me some trouble. Regularly it is associated with players who receive less "hype," (or create less hype around themselves) but who are still considered to be excellent players. Often it has been said that Marvin Harrison is underrated, or Steve McNair was underrated. But so many people claim that these players are underrated, it gets to the point that everyone seems to be RATING them pretty high (top 5 WRs, elite group of QBs), just talking about them less frequently than, say, Terrell Owens.

To me, being highly regarded as a player but under-hyped does not equate to being underrated. Underrated comes, to me, in basically two categories. There are players whose names are known, but not highly regarded, but they actually play at a star-caliber level of play. Then there are players that most fans haven't even heard of, but they are, in fact, high-level, borderline pro-bowl players. If a guy is on every media outlet's list for "pro bowl snubs," then he's clearly getting his due in many circles, and isn't entirely an underrated player. A good example of that is the Raiders' underrated CB Asomugha. Yes, he is better than he gets credit for, but since many many people seem to be recognizing this, I don't consider him to be underrated in the extreme.

My selection for the most underrated player in the league might have a hint of both types. He is a star-caliber player that many fans haven't really heard of--he still has a lot to prove in terms of consistency and maintaining that high level of play before he gets "star" credit, but he is an upper-tier player that gets little-to-no credit and he should have been more recognized for a sensational season.

The most underrated player in the league is Kerry Rhodes, safety, New York Jets. There were a few years in which safety Adrian WIlson was considered to be the most underrated player in the league. He was versatile, playing well in pass coverage, in run support and in pass rushing. He is a tall, athletic do-it-all safety who finally got the credit he deserved when after a couple years of recognition, he made a pro bowl.

Kerry Rhodes is in the same mold. Rhodes, like Wilson, is 6'3". Like Wilson, Rhodes can do a little bit of everything--and he can do it well. According to nfl.com, last season (in only his second year and his first in a new defensive scheme), Rhodes came through with 4 interceptions, 5 sacks, 9 passes defensed, 3 forced fumbles and 75 solo tackles. Pro Bowler Adrian Wilson had 4 interceptions, 5 sacks, 7 passes defensed, 4 forced fumbles and 74 solo tackles.

The similarities in their production are striking, indeed. And, in fact, Rhodes' 9 passes defensed top Wilson's career best (by one). In only his second year, Rhodes is playing at the level of Wilson in year six--and not just in terms of numbers, but also in terms of the vital role he plays on his team.

In New York, Rhodes has quickly become a leader of the defense and a student of the game. He has taken to Mangini's defensive schemes immediately and is raely out of position. On a team with a need at CB and no player of note playing at safety next to him, Rhodes helped Mangini's defense rank in the top half of the league in pass defense, and before we think about calling it a system product, keep in mind that Rhodes out-performed most of the safeties that ever played in the Patriots' scheme before Mangini brought it south.

In addition to the Adrian Wilson comparison, it should be noted that last season, Rhodes ranked among the top ten safeties in terms of total tackles, interceptions, sacks (where he ranked even higher), forced fumbles--basically everything. Rhodes was a top 5-10 safety in the league last year, but only receives about as much attention as an average, everyday player. Rhodes does everything asked of him, he does it at a high level, and he's doing so in only his second year in the league. Maybe some would think that it takes more time than that to earn a reputation, but for the way Rhodes plays, he's certainly worthy of far more praise and recognition than he receives.

[jc09pats]

My underrated player-Wes Welker: he's starting to get recognition as he was traded to the Patriots but before that and even still he'll have to beat out other WRs.He caught 67 passes for 687 yards while playing with the Dolphins and Joey Harrington/Cleo Lemon/Daunte Culpepper. While 2 of those QBs have proven they can play (and Lemon has shown some potential), he had good numbers for playing mainly as a 3rd WR behind Chris Chambers and Marty Booker. He also was a leader in kick returns with 48 returns with 1064 yards. Special teams is a key opponent, and these solid stats help. While WR isnt as key as a QB or LB, its important, especially when he returns kickoffs aswell. He helped alot in the success of the dolphins last year.

[J_Ray]

After reading YoHo's article on what an underrated player is (he had to make the player bold so people would know before they fell asleep) and JC Pats picking a PSH fan favorite to try to get votes. I think I'm going to just keep this short and sweet compared to YoHo's book cuz lazy people like me gotta keep our energy and motivation for the real debate


My pick for the NFL's most underrated player is probably know because he's been around so long but only real football fans will know why I'm picking him. For Carolina (Your thoughts: "What a Homer") their defense has been a top dog for sometime now. Everyone knows their great defensive line, their injury prone Linebacker core, and the 3 crazy good cornerbacks they have. After those spots, the safety spot has always had 1 guy, his name is Mike Minter. (Took page out of YoHo's book of great knowledge) He's the only reason Carolina's safety spot isn't a weakness. The front office has always signed these scrubs or outcasts to put next to him as of late. While that's been going on he's stayed solid production wise, provided leadership to the D, and has been able to stay healthy. He may not put up monster numbers for a safety tackle wise, but that because he has a solid frontline. He had over 80 tackles in 7 of his 10 season in the NFL, 4 of his last 5. The leadership he brings is monumental for Carolina's D with the patchwork defenses they always seem to have. For real NFL fans, you all know how they're "The Home of the Injury Bug", so when young or new players have to step in, he helps them feel comfortable. He's a good mentor for young players coming in, which is always a big help to coaches. Last year at the end of the year Richard Marshall was asked who was the biggest help to him and he said this:

Minter. I talked to Mint a lot and he’s been a big help to me this year. I go to him when I have questions.

It's always great to have someone for the rookies to go to when they need help. Having someone like Minter is what can possibly make a draft pick a stud or bust. People always say Carolina is a good drafter, but anyone ever thought maybe they just develop players good? To top everything off, Minter played every game in his rookie season but followed it up by only playing 6 the next year. The next 8 season after that, he's only missed 2 games for Carolina. Having a healthy player is always good in the NFL

[Dan]

The most underrated player in the NFL is Bernard Berrian, receiver Chicago Bears. Berrians speed and the fact that he was a deep threat changed the Bears offense in 06. The biggest difference between the 05 Bears and 06 Bears was the ability to make big plays in the passing game and Berrian was a big part of that. He also helped take pressure off of Mushin Muhammed and the Bears running game.

[ruuuuudiii]

Alright, guys, the debate is open. Time to convince the voters.


To the ones that haven't posted yet, you can still jump in and start at anytime, you are not eliminated.

You will have about 4 days.

Good luck, and keep it above the belt.

[Azazel]

Ladies and Gentlemen, to attain the most underrated player in the NFL, one must first look to the most Underrated POSITION in the game of football. Which one would that be? To me, it comes down to 2 positions; The Fullback, and The Offensive lineman. The position of the Fullback in today's game has been somewhat diminished, on SOME teams, eliminated all together. So logic tells us that the most underrated and under appreciated position would be the Offensive Lineman. This is ironic in a few ways but the most important would be that the popular opinion is that the Offensive lineman is very hard to cultivate, extremely valuable, and if you ask any coach or anyone in the know, they will tell you that the Offensive Lineman is the smartest person on the field in the way of intelligence. The shear number of plays, blocking schemes and memory that the average O-Lineman has to remember and learn instinctively is mind boggling. Not to mention hearing, reacting and putting them into motion as a 6th sense at a moments notice of a code word, or combination of codewords.

We have established that the offensive lineman is a very valuable part of any offensive scheme, and NOW we know that they are the most underrated player on a football team. Out of the 5 men on an offensive line which is the most underrated of the most under appreciated? When you DO hear about offensive linemen and the few times they DO get any kind of accolades; who is it? The Gaurd? No, its usually the tackle like Orlando Pace, or Jon Runyon getting beat or sinking Michael Strahan. Maybe a Guard when they get a big stuff or a block....but who do you NEVER hear about? The Center. the general and the heart of the offensive line. Unless a snap is fumbled, and the QB blames it on the fat guy, you barley hear anything about the Center. The center has a lot of responsibility. In addition to the usual task of protecting the QB, opening up running lanes, and making sure the right blocks are being used...plus no holding! no low blocks! no face masks! with all of that and more on the Center's head, they also have this....snapping the ball and then quickly doing everything else. Snapping the ball doesn't SOUND like much, but have YOU done it? you have? Every do it the accepted NFL way? probably not. It takes years to perfect. Once you have that down, on EVERY single offensive play, whether it is passing or rushing, as a Center you will have to that 45-60 times a game. That's 720-960 times a year (Thats IF you don't make the playoffs. Mess that up? it messes everything up. The QB depends on the Center more than any other position.

So, obviously the most underrated player is a man that plays the most underrated position. A man who you barley hear about....

Jeffery Bryant Saturday

Jeff Saturday (#63)is the bedrock of an O-line which has blocked well enough to allow Peyton Manning and crew to shatter several NFL records. He is an intelligent, sturdy and dependable player. The Colts O-line's cohesiveness stems in large part from Saturday's leadership. The former Tarheel was underappreciated and overlooked even in his college days at Chapel Hill, he went undrafted out of college. He has since has been the anchor of the Colts' offensive line for several years. He stands six feet, two inches tall and weighs 295 pounds. He was selected to his second NFL Pro Bowl in 2007, and started for the AFC squad. He even passed the ball on one play during a game in 2004, but his attempt fell incomplete. Nevertheless, he has the highest passer rating of all-time for a center (39.6).

On January 21, 2007, Saturday helped the Colts win the AFC Championship game when he recovered a teammate's fumble in the end zone and scored a touchdown. In that same game, the New England Patriots' left guard Logan Mankins also scored a touchdown on a fumble recovery, making that game the first in NFL playoff history to have two offensive linemen score touchdowns in the same game. Saturday also provided the key block on the game-winning touchdown run by Joseph Addai, with quarterback Peyton Manning naming Saturday's play "The Block." Two weeks later, he helped the Colts win Super Bowl XLI.

Saturday also received the "Tuesday Morning Quarterback Non-QB Non-RB NFL MVP Award" from ESPN columnist Gregg Easterbrook in January of 2007.

here are some career years for Jeff:

2005: Started 16 games at C…earned Pro Bowl honors for first time in career, while also being named first-team All-Pro by Associated Press…has been starting fixture on line for six seasons, while also playing in 1999…with linemates, has helped club produce 5,000+ net yards in franchise-record eight consecutive seasons, while six of team’s nine 400+-point seasons have come in last seven years…line has helped WR-Marvin Harrison produce club-record seven consecutive 1,000+-yard and 10+-TD seasons…with linemates, has helped QB-Peyton Manning record eight consecutive seasons with 25+-TD passes and 3,000+ yards…line has yielded only 140 sacks in last 112 games (lowest in NFL)…line surrendered league-low 20 sacks in 2005…club has ranked in top five in NFL six times in last seven years in fewest sacks allowed (14, 1999, 1st; 20, 2000, T1st; 30, 2001, 10th; 23, 2002, 4th; 19, 2003, 3rd; 14, 2004, T1st, 20, 2005, 1st)…line has helped team amass 300+ net yards 103 times in last 128 games, including 350+ yards 73 times and 400+ yards 33 times…line helped RB-Edgerrin James produce 1,506 rushing yards, his fourth career 1,500+ season, including nine 100+ games…Colts have had a 100+ rusher 55 times in last 110 games.

2003: Started 16 games for 4th consecutive season for Colts … has started last 64 games and has appeared in last 74 games, longest streaks by a Colts lineman … with Saturday, line helped allow Colts to score 447 points, T2nd-most in NFL and highest total in franchise history … it was only 7th 400+ season in club history and 4th time in last five seasons (429, 2000; 423, 1999; 413, 2001) … line has paved way for club to produce 5,000+ net yards in six consecutive seasons, longest streak in club history … line has helped QB Peyton Manning become only NFL QB with five consecutive 4,000+ seasons, assisted WR Marvin Harrison to become only NFL WR with four consecutive 100+-reception seasons, aided RB Edgerrin James (1,553, 1999; 1,709, 2000) win two NFL rushing titles and helped RB Dominic Rhodes (1,104, 2001) become only undrafted NFL rookie free agent to produce 1,000+ season.

2002: Saw action as starting C in 16 games for third consecutive season … joined LT Tarik Glenn and RG Ryan Diem as only linemen to start each game.

2001: Started 16 games at C, opening every game for second consecutive season…joined LT-Tarik Glenn as only linemen to open every game…ranks as one of most underrated players at his position in NFL…the line helped Colts produce 10 individual 100+ rushing performances, the most by any NFL team…the 10 individual 100+ games tied club seasonal-best of 10 in 1999, while club did it 9 times in 2000.

2000: Started 16 games at C in first season as full-time starter … played vital role in club allowing only 20 sacks, tied with NYJ for lowest in NFL … the NFL avg. was 39.6 … 20 sacks allowed are third-best mark in franchise history (14, 1999; 19, 1969) … Colts allowed 20 sacks in 591 dropbacks (one for every 29.6 attempts), the second-best mark in franchise history (one for every 40 attempts, 1999) … line paved way for RB Edgerrin James to win second consecutive NFL rushing title.

not bad for a guy you have barely heard of eh? Hell no! It's fantastic!. There is no doubt at all that Jeff Saturday is the most underrated player in the NFL.

I thank you for listening.....er......reading.

[jc09pats]

all OL are underrated really, well most of them who do their job are. you can make a case for a lot of them in the league (many are consistant as well).

Berrian has just started to shine-he hasnt had it for the past couple of years (i do love berrian in madden though). He had 51 receptions last year (rex grossmen=dolphins QB but has a better line) which is less than Welker.

a lot of players take others under their wings that are older-its just not said much. Minters only had 1 season better than Rhodes worst season (99 tackles for rhodes). Granted he's played decent over his entire career, he doesnt warrant numbers that wow people with no talk. Rhodes deserves more credit.

Kerry Rhodes is still young, he has time to fall off his horse (sort of like DeAngelo Hall in debate 2 of overratedness [if he is] hes still young). He's good no doubt, but he's not hyped because he's still young. He was a 4th round pick (yes i know that isnt saying much) but he wasnt picked in the 1st to give him the talk as a 1st or 2nd round player would. He's only played 2 seasons and has averaged around 100 tackles. Theres no saying he'll be worse, but theres no saying he wont have his numbers drop.

Welker will be the 3rd WR again on the patriots but has a better QB in Tom Brady. Brady averaged 325 completions the past 2 years, Randy Moss will take 80 of those (less receptions but will have bigger yards), Ben watson will take about 40 of those, Stallworth will have about 50, and laurence maroney will take about 15-20(those are the 4 starters). Thats about 100 receptions to throw around to the rest of the crew. Welker will be the 3rd, given more looks to, and take away about 40 receptions but will have YAC and kick returns to add stats. If he doesnt return kicks-he'll be on the field more and get more stats. Bradys best year was 373 completions in 2002. He'll probably have about 350 to try to keep all his WRs happy. Even if randy moss does get 100 receptions, and stallwroth gets 50 (he has 39 last year with the eagles), thats still 200 receptions to spread. Welker should have about 50 catchs and 500 yards+ and KR yards if not more. He's only gotten better the past 2 years (29 catches then 67 catchs last year). he led the team in receptions last year but was mainly used as the #2 or #3 normally. Playing as a #3 in NE he'll have the nickle back or even LB with no safety who may be doubling on Moss covering him. he is better then them and will beat them. he'll be the best slot WR in the league but as a slot wont be talked about unless he beats stallworth in the year to take #2. Then he'll get some talk.

[The Lion King]

Am I allowed to vote???