Discuss Ray vs. Jamal III in Sunday's game

[ThomasTomasz]

In another 15 or 20 years, Ravens middle linebacker Ray Lewis will sit down and have dinner with Cleveland Browns running back Jamal Lewis. They'll cherish the old days, particularly the Super Bowl run after the 2000 season.

They'll talk about how they used to train together and spur each other on at key moments during games.

But that's years down the road ...

Ray vs. Jamal III in Sunday's game -- baltimoresun.com

[Ben Stiller]

They will talk about the stabbings... the coke deals...

[Ravenatic20]

Except Ray never actually stabbed anyone! Jamal did do a coke deal though.

[Ben Stiller]

Originally Posted by Ravenatic20

Except Ray never actually stabbed anyone! Jamal did do a coke deal though.

Im sorry... obstruction of justice in a murder investigation. Didnt mean to tarnish the mans name.

[Ravenatic20]

Originally Posted by Ben Stiller

Im sorry... obstruction of justice in a murder investigation. Didnt mean to tarnish the mans name.

Interfering with a murder case is not the same as murder. Everyone keeps saying Ray killed someone when in fact most of them know it not to be true. I wish people wouldn't say it because there is no reason to. Obstruction of justice is one thing, saying he murdered someone is completely false.

[Ben Stiller]

Originally Posted by Ravenatic20

Interfering with a murder case is not the same as murder. Everyone keeps saying Ray killed someone when in fact most of them know it not to be true. I wish people wouldn't say it because there is no reason to. Obstruction of justice is one thing, saying he murdered someone is completely false.

I know the facts of the case. There is reason to say so. I think he was directly involved in the murder. He made a deal and pled guilty to obstruction.

Whatever though... he interfered in a murder case by attempting to cover it up.

[Texecutioner]

Originally Posted by Ben Stiller

Im sorry... obstruction of justice in a murder investigation. Didnt mean to tarnish the mans name.

Well I'm usually one to criticize the guys like Pac Man, Henry, and many others.

However, not in Ray Lewis's case. Ray Lewis has only had that one incident in his entire career for what I know about. Ever since then he has been a model citizen and team leader that has led by example and helped to groom many young players on that team.

Plus, in Ray's case wasn't it some sort of fist fight that got out of hand after the club or something? It's hard for me to judge a lot of those situations, because it's always hard to get all of the facts straight as to what happened. People can get injured really bad and really fast in random street brawls, and you can hurt someone a lot worse when your adrenaline is going and you don't know what the other person or persons is capable of.

I have a gazillion situations at bars or night clubs where some idiot tried to test me or someone I was with, or where I came out of a restroom and then all of a sudden a group of people that I was with were in a fight where I had to help out or break the fight up not even knowing what was happening. Bottles can get thrown, bouncers get out of hand and grab the wrong person, and just all sorts of stuff. I've seen the wrong guys get arrested plenty of times, and I've seen guys get smothered for no reason at all for just being at the wrong place at the wrong time when drama was unfolding.

Ray Lewis and his boys were coming out of a club from what I remember and got into a brawl with some guys. How do we know that the other guys weren't the ones that were threatening them? How do we know if whether or not Lewis and his boys felt afraid for their lives and just reacted like anyone would? I haven't seen any other situations where Ray Lewis was being a bully, or beating on women, or drugs of any kind, so I have a hard time looking at Ray Lewis as the monster that many other people do.

Other than his murder rap that might not have been his fault, he's been a pretty good role model, helped raise his younger brothers, and been a great leader on the Ravens team. He's never ran around acting like some ignorant thug or carried himself that way either.

[Ravenatic20]

Texecutioner, thanks for the kind words.

Originally Posted by Ben Stiller

I know the facts of the case. There is reason to say so. I think he was directly involved in the murder. He made a deal and pled guilty to obstruction.

Whatever though... he interfered in a murder case by attempting to cover it up.

Opinion noted, but there is no evidence he was. He was just trying to help a friend at the time.

If you don't like Ray Lewis, thats ok. But you don't have to tell lies about him (unless you have something to back it up). I don't like Ben Roethlisburger, but I don't go telling things about him that are not true.

[ThomasTomasz]

Tex, you bring up good points, but Lewis does get fined every game for having an uncovered gang tattoo. Whether or not Lewis is supporting a gang, or just doing it in defiance (a lot of other Hurricanes have done similar things) to the dress code, I don't know.

Needless to say, Lewis is a great football player, and after this instance, there have been nothing but good things from him off the field. If Lewis did anything that night, he's got to deal with it in his own time.

[Ben Stiller]

Originally Posted by Texecutioner

Ray Lewis has only had that one incident in his entire career for what I know about. Ever since then he has been a model citizen and team leader that has led by example and helped to groom many young players on that team.

Model citizen? In what sense? He hasnt been involved in any more murders that we know of? Being a team leader means nothing to me as far as what he did off the football field. The fact you are more inclined to defend him due to his actions ON the field is disappointing and exactly the problem the defense saw with trying a football player with murder. Its why they offered him a plea deal... why did he take it? Like many before and after him from "the U" he has done everything he can to give himself that thug image.

Originally Posted by Texecutioner

Plus, in Ray's case wasn't it some sort of fist fight that got out of hand after the club or something? It's hard for me to judge a lot of those situations, because it's always hard to get all of the facts straight as to what happened. People can get injured really bad and really fast in random street brawls, and you can hurt someone a lot worse when your adrenaline is going and you don't know what the other person or persons is capable of.

2 men were CHASED DOWN and stabbed. The driver of the limousine Lewis and his friends dove into quotes Lewis as saying, "just keep your mouth shut and don't say nothing." The limo stopped outside a restaurant where a bag was dumped. Lewis' clothes from that night were never recovered. Photos from that night were burned by Lewis' girlfriend. Several witnesses originally placing Lewis as part of the fight either changed their statement or would not testify. The two men Lewis agreed to testify against as part of his plea deal were also found not guilty? So, who killed those men? Well, Lewis went on to settle one families civil trial against him by paying them $1 million. Then paying more to the other family? Are you going to give a couple million to the families of men you did not murder to avoid trial again?

Originally Posted by Texecutioner

I have a gazillion situations at bars or night clubs where some idiot tried to test me or someone I was with, or where I came out of a restroom and then all of a sudden a group of people that I was with were in a fight where I had to help out or break the fight up not even knowing what was happening. Bottles can get thrown, bouncers get out of hand and grab the wrong person, and just all sorts of stuff. I've seen the wrong guys get arrested plenty of times, and I've seen guys get smothered for no reason at all for just being at the wrong place at the wrong time when drama was unfolding.

So in the gazillion times you have innocently stepped into these bar fights, how many times were you charged with double homicide? How many times did you speed off in a limo, lie to the police, dump bloody clothes, or burn pictures? I hope for your case its zero.

Originally Posted by Texecutioner

Ray Lewis and his boys were coming out of a club from what I remember and got into a brawl with some guys. How do we know that the other guys weren't the ones that were threatening them? How do we know if whether or not Lewis and his boys felt afraid for their lives and just reacted like anyone would? I haven't seen any other situations where Ray Lewis was being a bully, or beating on women, or drugs of any kind, so I have a hard time looking at Ray Lewis as the monster that many other people do.

The two victims attempted to run when they saw a knife... they were chased down...

Your argument, though, is that Lewis and his friends were afraid of the other two? So this 6+, 250+, professional athlete was so terrified of these men that he had to stab them in self defense, right? So his story of those other two men not even being with him was not true then? Oh, ya... he admitted that was a lie. So his other story of trying to break up the fight and never knowing about any knives being used wasnt true?

Originally Posted by Ravenatic20

Opinion noted, but there is no evidence he was.

Yes, there was evidence. Enough to get a conviction? Debatable, but he copped a plea to avoid trial.

Originally Posted by Ravenatic20

He was just trying to help a friend at the time.

You say it like he was helping a friend move in to a new place. At the bare minimum he was trying to help a friend or two cover up a murder he was witness to. Worst case scenario? He helped his two friends murder two other men.

Plus, he ended up testifying against them to save himself.

Originally Posted by Ravenatic20

But you don't have to tell lies about him (unless you have something to back it up).

What lies? Quote one. Just one. Ill wait...

Originally Posted by Ravenatic20

I don't like Ben Roethlisburger

Because you think he was involved in a murder or because he makes the Steelers better than the Ravens?