Redskins Trade 3 Firsts for RGIII

[MrSlurpee]

Redskins acquired the No. 2 overall pick in exchange for three first-round picks, including No. 6 overall this year, and a future second-round selection.
FOX Sports' Jay Glazer reports that St. Louis and Washington will exchange first-round picks this year. The Rams will get the Skins' first-round picks in 2013 and 2014. The Redskins are now positioned to draft Baylor QB Robert Griffin III, or Stanford QB Andrew Luck if the Colts pull a fast one at No. 1. New Rams coach Jeff Fisher and GM Les Snead were intent on putting their "stamp" on the St. Louis organization with a lofty draft-pick haul in year one, and they've got it in exchange for moving down only four spots. We still love the deal for Washington. They're absolutely going to get a franchise quarterback, and will still be all systems go in free agency. The Browns are left in the dust.

Holy cow what a haul the Rams got to drop just 4 picks. This blows the Ricky Williams deal out of the water. 3 firsts! Fisher has set the Rams up for the long term if they can hit on even half those picks.

[Sascha]

Well, I never consider the current draft pick, because all in all it's a swap, so technically the Rams are trading one pick and getting three, leaving them two.

Good get for them, but should be good for Skins too.

[Chris Raiden]

No first round picks until 2015 for a team with not the greatest talent level to begin with, plus a few missing picks this year after missing a few last year (see: McNabb, Donovan).

I think they overpaid a bit.

[Sascha]

The Redskins have a long history of being careless with their draft picks, so to some this may be another example of that. But no, it's not overpaying when the result is getting Robert Griffin.

Sure, I'm assuming Griffin will live up to his hype, but if he does, then giving up three draft picks is a simple and fair price.

[StevenSD]

Anyone else feel like it's 1998 all over again?

[Sascha]

I'll admit I liked Ryan Leaf a lot in '98, but not nearly as much as Peyton, and not as much as Griffin this year, so I'm hoping against a repeat of that year. Though, if it were to happen, I couldn't think of a better candidate that Dan Snyder. :D

[Hawkeye]

The Redskins have a long history of being careless with their draft picks, so to some this may be another example of that. But no, it's not overpaying when the result is getting Robert Griffin.

Sure, I'm assuming Griffin will live up to his hype, but if he does, then giving up three draft picks is a simple and fair price.

For a player that has never played a down? Yeah that is overpaying. Even if the guy is the second coming of whoever, it won't do him much good with a sub par supporting cast, and that is exactly what he will have with no first rounders the next couple of years to help improve the team. It's very risky to give two first round picks for a PROVEN player, but even worse to give two extra firsts on top of a swap to move up and take him.

[|(evin|(olb|(ritik]

I'm skeptical, VERY skeptical. Not just of the trade and the value the Skins gave up but also of the player himself. I concede that Griffin is an interesting prospect with a ton of potential upside and an awesome skillset but he's also another spread option QB who has jumped up the draft board and seen his hype train skyrocket radically the last couple of months without throwing a single football. He seems like that guy this year who people are over analyzing and over hyping, there is atleast one every year and typically it surrounds some workout warrior who just looks fantastic from every angle until you actually ask him to do the things that a pro player needs to do... You know, like read a defense and throw timing routes to receivers in a traditional route tree.

[Hawkeye]

I'm skeptical, VERY skeptical. Not just of the trade and the value the Skins gave up but also of the player himself. I concede that Griffin is an interesting prospect with a ton of potential upside and an awesome skillset but he's also another spread option QB who has jumped up the draft board and seen his hype train skyrocket radically the last couple of months without throwing a single football. He seems like that guy this year who people are over analyzing and over hyping, there is atleast one every year and typically it surrounds some workout warrior who just looks fantastic from every angle until you actually ask him to do the things that a pro player needs to do... You know, like read a defense and throw timing routes to receivers in a traditional route tree.

Even though I think it is a lot to pay for a player, I do think he will be good. He is not another spread option QB. He stacks up as a better pure passer than any other spread QB of his type in recent memory. It's like they have been saying, Baylor's offense is a lot more complicated than people think. Watch game footage of the TCU, Texas and Washington games.

[Texecutioner]

I'm skeptical, VERY skeptical. Not just of the trade and the value the Skins gave up but also of the player himself. I concede that Griffin is an interesting prospect with a ton of potential upside and an awesome skillset but he's also another spread option QB who has jumped up the draft board and seen his hype train skyrocket radically the last couple of months without throwing a single football. He seems like that guy this year who people are over analyzing and over hyping, there is atleast one every year and typically it surrounds some workout warrior who just looks fantastic from every angle until you actually ask him to do the things that a pro player needs to do... You know, like read a defense and throw timing routes to receivers in a traditional route tree.

Coming from a guy who has put so much confidence and stock in Vick, this is laughable Phil.

He's way better than what Vick was when Vick came out of college. He's actually a dual threat QB unlike Vick was when Vick came out of college or out of jail.

Plus, he doesn't have anywhere near the character issues either. Considering how far you've stuck your neck out for Vick for so long now, this is wildly inconsistent from you.

[|(evin|(olb|(ritik]

Coming from a guy who has put so much confidence and stock in Vick, this is laughable Phil.

He's way better than what Vick was when Vick came out of college. He's actually a dual threat QB unlike Vick was when Vick came out of college or out of jail.

Plus, he doesn't have anywhere near the character issues either. Considering how far you've stuck your neck out for Vick for so long now, this is wildly inconsistent from you.

I don't know what this conversation has to do with Vick at all Tex other than you wanting to try to drag this discussion off topic into some other discussion you want to have so that you can bash on Vick.

Whether or not I like Michael Vick as a pro QB has nothing to do with whether or not I like RG3 as a mid first round pick or a high first round pick. You started out your reply stating that my opinion is laughable but the only thing laughable here is your pathetic attempt to turn this into some type of an opportunity to bash on Vick or my support of him. To state it again, my opinion of RG3 is in no way comparable to my opinion of Vick, they're 2 entirely different players in 2 entirely different situations.

[Texecutioner]

I don't know what this conversation has to do with Vick at all Tex other than you wanting to try to drag this discussion off topic into some other discussion you want to have so that you can bash on Vick.

Whether or not I like Michael Vick as a pro QB has nothing to do with whether or not I like RG3 as a mid first round pick or a high first round pick. You started out your reply stating that my opinion is laughable but the only thing laughable here is your pathetic attempt to turn this into some type of an opportunity to bash on Vick or my support of him. To state it again, my opinion of RG3 is in no way comparable to my opinion of Vick, they're 2 entirely different players in 2 entirely different situations.

I'm just really surprised Phil, because you've held so much confidence in Vick and at one point I'll grant that you were right about Vick being able to get his speed back where I was wrong on that part specifically. I have been very shocked in the last few years at your unconditional confidence in Vick's over all abilities as a QB from a passing standpoint and from an injury prone standpoint though.

Here we have this other guy who is a little bigger (Not much though) and extremely fast, but has a much better arm than Vick did when he came out of college and seems like an outstanding young man that you'd want to lead your team. I thought that you'd be extremely high on RG3. It's a lot more about me being surprised than me wanting to bash on Vick. I figured that you'd be just as high on RG3 as me if not higher.

I know they gave up a lot, but if RG3 comes close to what his potential ceiling can be as QB in this league, I can't fault the Skins one bit here. When you're a team like the Skins, Dolphins, Bills, Jags, and a few others who have struggled for many years to find a really good QB to take your team to that next level sometimes you have to make that really bold move to get one.

[Sascha]

Is it a gamble? Of course, things like these always are.

Did they overspend? Nope, the Rams were going to get that from somebody, guaranteed.

Do I think it will work out for the Redskins? Absolutely!

[|(evin|(olb|(ritik]

I'm just really surprised Phil, because you've held so much confidence in Vick and at one point I'll grant that you were right about Vick being able to get his speed back where I was wrong on that part specifically. I have been very shocked in the last few years at your unconditional confidence in Vick's over all abilities as a QB from a passing standpoint and from an injury prone standpoint though.

Here we have this other guy who is a little bigger (Not much though) and extremely fast, but has a much better arm than Vick did when he came out of college and seems like an outstanding young man that you'd want to lead your team. I thought that you'd be extremely high on RG3. It's a lot more about me being surprised than me wanting to bash on Vick. I figured that you'd be just as high on RG3 as me if not higher.

I know they gave up a lot, but if RG3 comes close to what his potential ceiling can be as QB in this league, I can't fault the Skins one bit here. When you're a team like the Skins, Dolphins, Bills, Jags, and a few others who have struggled for many years to find a really good QB to take your team to that next level sometimes you have to make that really bold move to get one.

Now that's a more level headed reply Tex, thank you.

I'd attempt to explain the differences between my opinions of the two players but it's difficult because as I said, they are in very different situations. One thing that you have to understand though when you start to critique my opinions of Michael Vick is that my opinions on Vick have changed multiple times through his career and each time that they've changed it has been in response to what i've seen Vick do. When Vick came out of college I recognized like most people did that he was a fantastically gifted player who could develop into a great player some day if the right coaches could put all of the tools together. He wasn't a complete player though so I was skeptical of him too when he came out of school. With that said though, although I was skeptical of Vick coming out of school I still believe he was a better prospect at the time than RG3 is speaking from a purely football related standpoint. You really can't knock Vicks arm coming out of college, he had a near perfect throwing motion (still does), displayed pinpoint accuracy when he set up to pass, and could hit any route on the field. What sets the two apart though is Vick did run a more pro style offense in college that featured traditional route trees for the receivers and required Vick to read entire defenses. That isn't something I can say for RG3, he runs that spread option that doesn't feature traditional WR route trees and only requires that the QB read one or two choices specific defensive players make before deciding where to throw the ball. That isn't meant to hate on RG3 its just a fact of life and it's the main reason why these spread option QB's fail at an alarmingly high rate in the NFL. It doesn't matter how good of a prospect a spread option QB is, it doesn't matter how athletic he is, how smart he is, how charming he is, i'm going to be skeptical of ALL OF THEM because what they did in college doesn't directly apply to the pro game so it can't be considered in the evaluation process. RG3 might as well have run the ball every play in college because other than judging his throwing motion and arm strength we know NOTHING else about how well he will throw the ball on the pro level. Even though I liked Vick better as a player when he came out of the draft, I didn't like his character and I questioned his work ethic. I wouldn't have drafted Vick as highly as he was drafted either.

Once Vick went to Atlanta I believed he could develop, however I did NOT rate him very highly as a player because he wasn't developing as a passer due to the attitude and work ethic issues. This went on for the entirety of his career in Atlanta. I believed he could develop because he had the tools to do so, that perfect thowing motion, great accuracy, he wasn't intimidated on the field, but I never liked him as a player based on what he had shown us.

Then Vick went to prison and I figured, like most, that he was probably done forever. When he came out of prison I supported his re-entry into the NFL not because I thought he was a great player or because I felt he could make it, but because I felt he had served his time and paid his dues for his crime and that he deserved to live a full life to the best of his ability again. I would make the same argument for ANY convicted felon who went to prison and served what I felt was an adequate punishment for his crime. When teams were turning away from Vick though It felt discriminatory to me because they weren't simply choosing not to sign him, MOST TEAMS WOULDN'T EVEN TALK TO THE GUY. He went months without contact from an NFL team and it began to look like he was being black balled. When the Eagles signed him it was seemingly out of nowhere. Vick had been available for a long time at that point and Philly was the ONLY TEAM who brought the guy in to evaluate him. I'm not saying people needed to jump at signing the guy, but people wouldn't even give him a workout, they wouldn't even talk to him...... really? The guy can't get a phone call? It felt wrong and unjust.

When he signed in Philly I was proud of my team for being the one with a front office run by people who were big enough men to say "hey, we're not afraid, we'll give this guy a chance." I wasn't sure what Vick could bring to the team, I was skeptical of his ability but I figured with Donovan starting IF Vick could get his speed back he could serve as a viable wild-cat QB at a time when the wild-cat formations were still kicking some ass in the NFL. I wasn't sure if that was ever going to happen but Vick was relatively cheap and it wasn't hurting any one to have him on the roster so I figured what the hell. That first year you could see his stamina was low and he'd run out of gas quickly, his mind and body was a bit slow to react to the speed of the game, but you could see that his legs were still there and that was encouraging. You could see that the spark he always carried inside of him was still there buried beneath an out of shape player in need of conditioning. The throwing motion still good, the accuracy still pin point, the arm was live. All of that was encouraging but that first year I never expected Vick to become anything more than another Andy Reid project for trade bait.

Then in his second season it was time for Kevin Kolb to take over and we all know how that went. Kolb got injured in that first game and Vick took the reigns and was off to the races. This is when my opinion on Vick began to change, not because he was an Eagle, not because I had this love for him but because he began to show me things i'd never seen out of him before. He began to show us that he had checked the attitude and the poor work ethic that had held him back in the past, he was saying and doing all of the right things for the first time in his career despite a legion of haters chasing him with pitchforks and torches everywhere he went, and in doing so the results of his hard work were showing up on the field. He was quickly developing the ability to consistently dominate a football game with his arm for the first time in his career and putting up superhuman performances that would have wow'ed every football fan in the world had they come from anybody who was less universally hated than Vick. My opinion of him did a complete 180 at this time because he was showing me for the first time that he COULD do all of things that he was never able to do in the past. He wasn't perfect, he still had things to improve upon and work on but for the first time in his career I actually believed that he was on the right track toward making those improvements and that his potential to become one of the most dangerous players ever to step onto a football field was no longer just a fairy tale but a legitimate possibility.

My support of Vick has not been unconditional, he has had to prove worthy of it every step of the way. I support no one unconditionally, ask my wife she'll tell you! ;)

As for RG3, I do like him as a prospect, I just don't like how RG3 crazy every one has gone over the last few months. It feels like runaway hype and we've all seen that happen before. At the end of the college football season RG3 was considered the 3rd best QB likely to enter the draft behind Luck and Barkley and most people considered him a mid-late first round pick. I thought that was a fair assessment for an extremely athletic guy with a ton of upside and potential but whose passing proficiency could have legitimate concerns due to the system he runs in college. Then Barkley decides to postpone NFL entry to return for his senior season, RG3 does some impressive interviews and runs a super fast 40 time (like we didn't already know he was fast by watching the tape) and all of the sudden he's a concensus top 3 pick (higher than where Barkley likely would have been drafted had he entered) and the Rams are bringing in a haul for people to trade up for the right to draft him. All of this without him displaying anything to prove that he's got the passing proficiency required to play in the NFL. All of this after most experts believed Matt Barkley was a better pure QB. I just don't get it, as I said it feels a lot like runaway hype to me and we've seen how these things have gone in the past.

[Blackmallard]

I am not happy that the Colts didn't keep Manning and do a deal similar to this one that the Rams got.

[Sascha]

I am not happy that the Colts didn't keep Manning and do a deal similar to this one that the Rams got.

Me too, I suggested it all season, and maybe the Polians would be leaning that way.

In fact, for Luck, that price could have been even a tad higher (like an extra 2nd and maybe a 3rd).

[Hawkeye]

At the end of the college football season RG3 was considered the 3rd best QB likely to enter the draft behind Luck and Barkley and most people considered him a mid-late first round pick.

Considered the 3rd best by SOME, but not all. How much of that do you suppose was due to the offense he played in and the school he went to though?



I thought that was a fair assessment for an extremely athletic guy with a ton of upside and potential but whose passing proficiency could have legitimate concerns due to the system he runs in college.

That’s just it, it’s been said that offense is a lot more complex than people think and the coaches themselves don’t have a chance to sit down and look at tape of him until after their seasons have ended….which has been the last couple of months.



All of this without him displaying anything to prove that he's got the passing proficiency required to play in the NFL. All of this after most experts believed Matt Barkley was a better pure QB. I just don't get it, as I said it feels a lot like runaway hype to me and we've seen how these things have gone in the past.

So he displayed nothing in his college career? You can’t blame QBs for being afraid of throwing at the combine and messing up four years of work just because they might have a bad day.

We’ve also seen the opposite, like when a QB is questioned for the type of offense he played in and then looked impressive in workouts and didn’t pan out (Tim Couch anyone?). Or guys that played in more conventional offenses and looked good in workouts and failed (Ryan Leaf and Rick Mirer).

[Sascha]

Mike Holmgren has gone on record saying the Browns offered the same deal to the Rams, so perhaps we can at least put to rest the argument that only Dan Snyder was going to offer this much to move up.

[|(evin|(olb|(ritik]

I don't want to short change your arguments but I've been doing yard work all day, im exhausted, I've had only a single bowl of cereal all day and you're only going to get a quick reaction to your comments.



Considered the 3rd best by SOME, but not all. How much of that do you suppose was due to the offense he played in and the school he went to though?


Considered the 3rd best by the vast majority. Sure maybe that doesn't qualify as "all" but its certainly many more than "some." Furthermore I agree a lot of the reason he was ranked that way was due to the school he went to and the offense he played in. THAT'S THE ENTIRE POINT DUDE! They were right to be skeptical before the whole runaway hype began.





That’s just it, it’s been said that offense is a lot more complex than people think and the coaches themselves don’t have a chance to sit down and look at tape of him until after their seasons have ended….which has been the last couple of months.


The whole argument of "his offiense is a lot more complex than people think," is the SAME EXACT ARGUMENT people make every single year about every single spread option QB in the draft. It's still a college football offense with training wheels.

As for the coaches not getting a chance to look at tape until the season is over, that point is irrelevant. The coaches aren't evaluating these guys on their own, nor are the GM's who are the guys responsible for talent evaluation anyway. The scouts employed by the GM's and the front office have been watching these guys all year round. They didn't just show up to work the day the season ended and start their evaluations.





So he displayed nothing in his college career? You can’t blame QBs for being afraid of throwing at the combine and messing up four years of work just because they might have a bad day.


I'm not blaming him for not throwing at the combine. I'm saying I don't trust the way his hype and stock has risen without him throwing a single pass. Had he not seen his stock rise so greatly over the last couple of months I wouldn't care whether he threw at the combine or not. I'm just not understanding how a guy with legitimate questions surrounding his ability to run an NFL offense can see his stock rise so much without showing anything we didn't already know he had.

[Sascha]

Phil, I will only refute one statement.

The majority, if not the vast majority, had Griffin rated ahead of Barkley. Almost every scouting and ranking site I frequent had Griffin comfortably as the #2 QB and top 3-5 prospect and Barkley immediately behind him.

Nonetheless, what difference does it make? 2nd or third, what if these three are the best QB's to come out for five years? Do you really want to pass on one because he was 3rd? I guarantee you that if Barkley was declared for this draft, the same bidding war would now be on for Minnesota's pick.

[|(evin|(olb|(ritik]

Phil, I will only refute one statement.

The majority, if not the vast majority, had Griffin rated ahead of Barkley. Almost every scouting and ranking site I frequent had Griffin comfortably as the #2 QB and top 3-5 prospect and Barkley immediately behind him.

Nonetheless, what difference does it make? 2nd or third, what if these three are the best QB's to come out for five years? Do you really want to pass on one because he was 3rd? I guarantee you that if Barkley was declared for this draft, the same bidding war would now be on for Minnesota's pick.

I'm sorry but I don't buy that on your word alone. When Barkley was still in the conversation I didn't hear a single credible legitimate source list RG3 ahead of him and I heard a lot of guys talking about it. Thats besides the point though. Regardless of who was 2 or who was 3 I don't like seeing a guy with such obvious questions rising so quickly without answering any of those questions. It happens seemingly every year, most recently with Tebow. How's that working out?

[Sascha]

I'm sorry but I don't buy that on your word alone. When Barkley was still in the conversation I didn't hear a single credible legitimate source list RG3 ahead of him and I heard a lot of guys talking about it. Thats besides the point though. Regardless of who was 2 or who was 3 I don't like seeing a guy with such obvious questions rising so quickly without answering any of those questions. It happens seemingly every year, most recently with Tebow. How's that working out?

MOST recently with Newton, actually.

Bur Griffin is neither Tebow (a projected 4th rounder at best rising into the 1st) or Newton (a projected 2nd rounder becoming first overall), because even at the beginning of the college season Griffin was a bona-fide top ten draft pick.

[StevenSD]

MOST recently with Newton, actually.

Bur Griffin is neither Tebow (a projected 4th rounder at best rising into the 1st) or Newton (a projected 2nd rounder becoming first overall), because even at the beginning of the college season Griffin was a bona-fide top ten draft pick.

I'm not disagreeing with you because I didn't pay too much attention to the draft at the beginning of the school year, but I honeslty don't recall ANYONE bringing up RG3 (ESPN or NFLN) until late in the season.

[Sascha]

I'm not disagreeing with you because I didn't pay too much attention to the draft at the beginning of the school year, but I honeslty don't recall ANYONE bringing up RG3 (ESPN or NFLN) until late in the season.


That's only because that was when Griffin and Baylor became a story for the masses, and Griffin was a candidate and winner of the Heisman, but draft pundits were aware of Griffin long before then.

[Hawkeye]

Considered the 3rd best by the vast majority. Sure maybe that doesn't qualify as "all" but its certainly many more than "some." Furthermore I agree a lot of the reason he was ranked that way was due to the school he went to and the offense he played in. THAT'S THE ENTIRE POINT DUDE! They were right to be skeptical before the whole runaway hype began.

I don’t agree that the vast majority liked Barkley better and the idea that they were right to be skeptical because of his school or offense is just wrong. I think if he had run Baylor’s offense at USC we wouldn’t be having this discussion.



The whole argument of "his offiense is a lot more complex than people think," is the SAME EXACT ARGUMENT people make every single year about every single spread option QB in the draft. It's still a college football offense with training wheels.

I don’t know if you like to generalize college offenses or not, but the spread comes in two forms. There is the spread passing attack (Drew Brees, Kevin Kolb, Sam Bradford, etc) and the spread option (Denard Robinson, Pat White, Dennis Dixon). RGIII is a lot closer to the former than the latter.


As for the coaches not getting a chance to look at tape until the season is over, that point is irrelevant. The coaches aren't evaluating these guys on their own, nor are the GM's who are the guys responsible for talent evaluation anyway. The scouts employed by the GM's and the front office have been watching these guys all year round. They didn't just show up to work the day the season ended and start their evaluations.

You do know that I am aware that scouts are evaluating these guys all season long, right? However, how many scouts get fired because a first rounder doesn’t pan out? The GM and the HC are the guys that get burned if first rounders don’t pan out. The scouts can like a guy, but the GM and the HC have to live with the decision, so expect them to want to make their own evals rather than blindly listening to the scouts.

[Hawkeye]

I would think that if people were scratching their heads about a QB being in the top 10, it would be Ryan Tannehill. He wasn't even mentioned as a top QB in college football and yet, since the end of January, his hype has been rising. He didn't lead the Aggies to any success this year. He wasn't clutch. What makes HIM so special? Sorry, but even if he can make all the throws, it won't mean much if he doesn't have a head for being an NFL QB.

[l.a. no-teamers]

Phil, I will only refute one statement.

The majority, if not the vast majority, had Griffin rated ahead of Barkley. Almost every scouting and ranking site I frequent had Griffin comfortably as the #2 QB and top 3-5 prospect and Barkley immediately behind him.


It was actually reported that at least 75% of NFL Team's boards had Barkley at #2, and RGIII behind him.

If you're into non-NFL affiliated pundits, the most prominent, Mel Kiper, also had Barkley at #2 QB.

[Sascha]

It was actually reported that at least 75% of NFL Team's boards had Barkley at #2, and RGIII behind him.

If you're into non-NFL affiliated pundits, the most prominent, Mel Kiper, also had Barkley at #2 QB.

Not to split hairs because I feel everybody had the two immediately next to each other, in whatever order, but where are these reports? And let's not forget that any of those "reports" had to well before combine and interviews, where people can always excel and move up and down thanks to their good or bad interviews.

And yes, Kiper was one of the few I remember that generally had Barkley ahead of Griffin, and again, I'm fine with that. I think Luck, Griffin and Barkley are all talents the likes of which we don't see that often. The last guy I felt as strong about as these three was Roethlisberger, that was EIGHT years ago. It's simply amazing to me that there are three guys who I personally rate as A++ prospects all coming into the league (just about) together.

But, to reiterate the hair splitting, I personally like Griffin slightly more than Barkley and just a smidge behind Luck, and the majority of prospect sites I frequent have agreed with that.

[l.a. no-teamers]

Not to split hairs because I feel everybody had the two immediately next to each other, in whatever order, but where are these reports? And let's not forget that any of those "reports" had to well before combine and interviews, where people can always excel and move up and down thanks to their good or bad interviews.

And yes, Kiper was one of the few I remember that generally had Barkley ahead of Griffin, and again, I'm fine with that. I think Luck, Griffin and Barkley are all talents the likes of which we don't see that often. The last guy I felt as strong about as these three was Roethlisberger, that was EIGHT years ago. It's simply amazing to me that there are three guys who I personally rate as A++ prospects all coming into the league (just about) together.

But, to reiterate the hair splitting, I personally like Griffin slightly more than Barkley and just a smidge behind Luck, and the majority of prospect sites I frequent have agreed with that.

Barkley was out of the draft waaay before the combine, so I dont understand how the combine is relevant. It's not like his combine performance vaulted him past Barkley, a guy who was already out of the picture and didn't participate in the combine.

What EP was saying was that Barkley was rated ahead of RG3 by most teams, which was absolutely true if you want to believe official NFL personnel. How they would rate following the combine had Barkley stayed in the draft is purely a guess on your part (Barkley could have been an even better interview etc...), but during the time when they were both actually being compared, Barkley was ahead on most boards. The fact that RG3 is #2 now is by default, not because he passed up Barkley due to the draft process



where are these reports?

Took me time to dig something clear and from the mouth of an official because I read it a few places. Here is one from the time of the combine


While the current conversation makes it seem like a foregone conclusion that Griffin will go No. 2, he wasn't even considered the second-best quarterback in this draft two months ago.

Matt Barkley was ahead of Griffin on "three-quarters of teams' draft boards here, maybe more," the NFC official said. "And remember, Barkley was on fire and really riding a wave at the end of his season," colleague Mel Kiper noted. "That's your second QB off the board." Tyler Wilson and even Landry Jones have been mentioned here as guys who could have challenged Griffin. The juice he maintains right now is obviously talent-related -- but it's also because he's available.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/7610456/the-risk-involved-drafting-robert-griffin-iii-no-2-overall-nfl

[Sascha]

I think you misunderstood my comment about combine interviews. I was simply saying that they've been known to move people up and down draft boards, not stating anything specific about Griffin or anything potential regarding Barkley.


Second, I stand corrected, somewhat. I'm not sure that an NFC official would have access to every team's draft board, so I'm not really going to stand by it for accuracy.


Regardless of all that, these are still the three best QB's entering the league, in my opinion, in eight years, and that's what I'm most excited about.

[Chris Raiden]

There has apparently never been a trade in NFL history involving three first round picks for a single first. Add in a second on top of that, and RGIII better be a Hall of Famer for this to be worth it, especially given he gets no first round caliber help until 2015 now, when he'll be entering his FOURTH NFL season.

If it's Luck, no question, do it. I'm just not sure this was as a great deal for Washington.

[Chris Raiden]

Barkley was out of the draft waaay before the combine, so I dont understand how the combine is relevant. It's not like his combine performance vaulted him past Barkley, a guy who was already out of the picture and didn't participate in the combine.

What EP was saying was that Barkley was rated ahead of RG3 by most teams, which was absolutely true if you want to believe official NFL personnel. How they would rate following the combine had Barkley stayed in the draft is purely a guess on your part (Barkley could have been an even better interview etc...), but during the time when they were both actually being compared, Barkley was ahead on most boards. The fact that RG3 is #2 now is by default, not because he passed up Barkley due to the draft process

I agree, supply and demand. The demand for franchise caliber quarterbacks was high (Colts, Redskins, Browns, others), the supply (two) was low.

If Barkley's in this draft, the Rams get an auction for the #2, but not nearly this high of a cost, and not until draft day itself likely. The fact that these teams were not going to be in on Manning (at least, for the Redskins, as a longer term solution, only short term) in free agency drove the cost even higher.

I'd be VERY interested to see what would have happened had the Rams waited until now to see what Miami would offer.

[l.a. no-teamers]

I also think RG3 owes Cam Newton a big thank you bouquet. Fair or not, I believe Newton's success is embedded beyond RG3's intrinsic value. If Newton wasn't as good as he was, the Skins would not have to have given up 3 1st round picks IMO

[Sascha]

There has apparently never been a trade in NFL history involving three first round picks for a single first. Add in a second on top of that, and RGIII better be a Hall of Famer for this to be worth it, especially given he gets no first round caliber help until 2015 now, when he'll be entering his FOURTH NFL season.

If it's Luck, no question, do it. I'm just not sure this was as a great deal for Washington.

The Browns didn't think the price was too high, offering #4 and #22 and next year's first. They also added a 2nd rounder at the end to try to persuade the Rams, but they went with the Washington offer instead.

[|(evin|(olb|(ritik]

The Browns didn't think the price was too high, offering #4 and #22 and next year's first. They also added a 2nd rounder at the end to try to persuade the Rams, but they went with the Washington offer instead.

Pointing to the the Browns and Redskins as examples that the asking price wasn't too high is like using Paris Hilton as a character witness at a Lindsey Lohan court case.

[Chris Raiden]

Pointing to the the Browns and Redskins as examples that the asking price wasn't too high is like using Paris Hilton as a character witness at a Lindsey Lohan court case.I tend to agree here. I can't defend that offer, it was flat out stupid.

[Sascha]

Pointing to the the Browns and Redskins as examples that the asking price wasn't too high is like using Paris Hilton as a character witness at a Lindsey Lohan court case.

Really? Sure, knock Cleveland's scouting department and their lack of talent evaluation and what not, but I can't recall Cleveland overpaying or making silly (read: stupid) decisions with their roster and money the way Washington has been know to.

The Browns did a good job getting the Jets' first and second rounder and three players for Sanchez, and an even better job last year of getting 2 firsts, a 2nd, and two fourths for Jones. Cleveland generally makes decent trades, it's just what happens after that's been questionable.

The asking price for Griffin was just right, period. I knew any team that wanted to trade up was going to part with two additional first round picks. Washington threw in a 2nd before Cleveland had a chance to, and that's all she wrote.

Debate the merits of Griffin being worth all that all you want, but the price wasn't going to change.

[Texecutioner]

Pointing to the the Browns and Redskins as examples that the asking price wasn't too high is like using Paris Hilton as a character witness at a Lindsey Lohan court case.

:D That was pretty funny. Lol!

[Sascha]

And, one season in, Griffin already led a pretty poor Redskins team to the playoffs. Granted, he also injured himself in said playoffs, which was always going to be the one main concern, but looks like the Redskins are getting the money's worth.

[BigBenCan7]

And, one season in, Griffin already led a pretty poor Redskins team to the playoffs. Granted, he also injured himself in said playoffs, which was always going to be the one main concern, but looks like the Redskins are getting the money's worth.

I think we're still way too early in the game to decide whether or not the Redskins got their money's worth. The Rams haven't even used all of the picks they got from the Skins, have they? Granted, if you get a franchise quarterback, it doesn't really matter what you gave up. I think in three more years we'll have a much better idea of whether this read option is going to stick in the NFL, whether RGIII can stay healthy, and what exactly the Skins gave up to get him. So far though, looks like a pretty good deal.

I'm also interested to see if Mallard still feels the same way about trading the #1 pick and keeping Manning. Seems both Manning and Luck were pretty successful, still not sure what I would have wanted as a Colts fan.

[Blackmallard]

I'm also interested to see if Mallard still feels the same way about trading the #1 pick and keeping Manning. Seems both Manning and Luck were pretty successful, still not sure what I would have wanted as a Colts fan.

I feel exactly the same way, I absolutely wish they'd kept Manning and used the #1 pick to build the team. Looking at the AFC field they had a genuine chance to win the AFC championship if they'd kept Manning, especially since that would have knocked Denver out of the picture. The Colts with Manning plus whatever they could get for that #1 pick would have been one of the best teams in the AFC. If they weren't going to stick by Manning they should NEVER have done that last contract, at that point they should have been committed to "we're riding this out until he retires".

After that horrible season they chickened out and decided to blow everything up, it wasn't some sort of well thought out strategy that they had been planning for so they are going to have a hard time building up a great team. The coaching staff is still a crapshoot as to whether they're any good or not and right now the entire future rests on that Luck will be the next Manning. Pagano oversaw a slow start and the Colts getting trounced in the wildcard round, all the upset victories came while Arians, who is gone, was running the ship so I'm still at square one with trying to figure out if having Pagano as a head coach is an asset or not.

Who on the roster besides Luck might be a superstar type player? Wayne is probably a hall of famer, but he's at an age where every game might be his last. Fleener, Constanzo, T.Y. Hilton and Vick Ballard were the other players on the offense who were pretty good, but none of them were the kind of players who you build a team around.

On defense you have Mathis and Bethea, who are both good but not great and its pretty dismal after that.

If they had Manning it would be a huge upgrade at QB combined with upgrades at other positions and that means they'd have a much better shot at a title until the point that Manning runs out of gas.

As it is did you ever think the Colts had any shot at getting through the playoffs or that they will this year?