Kiper: Matt Barkley #1 overall 2012

[l.a. no-teamers]

Just building the hype as early as I can :)

Mel Kiper Makes a Barkley Prediction for 2012 | Bleacher Report (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/165504-mel-kiper-makes-a-barkley-prediction-for-2012)

[Chris Raiden]

Kiper is wrong.

Mainly because Terrelle Pryor will stay four years and will be the number one overall selection in 2012 :D

[|(evin|(olb|(ritik]

Kiper is wrong.

Mainly because Terrelle Pryor will stay four years and will be the number one overall selection in 2012 :D

That would be true if it weren't for the fact that Pryor isn't fit to shine Barkleys shoes. ;)

[Chris Raiden]

Barkley's ahead of the game right now, but look back at the 2006 draft. The polished prospect (Leinart) went behind the athletic guy an owner loved (Young).

My homerism aside, I'd argue Pryor is ahead of Young as a passer at this point in his career, and certainly is ahead in being able to digest and learn a playbook. OSU doesn't have just "Terrelle Right" and "Terrelle Left" in the playbook, it's a complete offensive system rather than just hey go do your thing. He looked great in the spring game, standing back, reading defensive coverages, making the right throw accurately.

[l.a. no-teamers]

Barkley's ahead of the game right now, but look back at the 2006 draft. The polished prospect (Leinart) went behind the athletic guy an owner loved (Young).

I could give you a million instances where the pocket QB was drafted ahead of the 'athletic guy.' How about Tim Couch ahead of Donovan McNabb? Ouch! never too big for a cheap shot ;)

[Chris Raiden]

I could give you a million instances where the pocket QB was drafted ahead of the 'athletic guy.' How about Tim Couch ahead of Donovan McNabb? Ouch! never too big for a cheap shot ;)
Low. Blow.

I can respond. Have you got a team yet? Eh? Eh?

:)

But seriously, good for Kiper, I prefer to evaluate guys as pro prospects once they've, you know, played a few downs of college football first. Tends to work out better that way. But hey, c'est la vie, and he's the one with the contract.

And the hair...

[|(evin|(olb|(ritik]

I could give you a million instances where the pocket QB was drafted ahead of the 'athletic guy.' How about Tim Couch ahead of Donovan McNabb? Ouch! never too big for a cheap shot ;)

/hi5

(10 char)

[Texecutioner]

Well this is only because Gilbert won't be coming out that early out of Texas. ;)

[|(evin|(olb|(ritik]

Well this is only because Gilbert won't be coming out that early out of Texas. ;)

I got a fat guy named Gilbert who used to cut my lawn. I thought I heard somewhere that he was goin back to school but I thought that was just anger management classes............ University of Texas, eh, same thing.

[Wolverine]

Pryor's gone after three RD, get used to that idea..

[Texecutioner]

I got a fat guy named Gilbert who used to cut my lawn. I thought I heard somewhere that he was goin back to school but I thought that was just anger management classes............ University of Texas, eh, same thing.

Just wait after this season when McCoy leaves Texas and Gilbert comes in and takes over. The guy's going to be a stud. So what, this Barkley kid is going to be great to you because he goes to USC? Personally I wouldn't doubt any young QB that's going to be the young up and comer out of USC with their history that would be great, and if you know anything about Texas's history with QB's you would do the same.

[|(evin|(olb|(ritik]

Just wait after this season when McCoy leaves Texas and Gilbert comes in and takes over. The guy's going to be a stud. So what, this Barkley kid is going to be great to you because he goes to USC? Personally I wouldn't doubt any young QB that's going to be the young up and comer out of USC with their history that would be great, and if you know anything about Texas's history with QB's you would do the same.

Yes he's going to be great just because he goes to USC. Well that and the fact that the dude was a nightmare in HS, one of the countries top recruits, and as a true freshman is probably going to win the starting QB job at one of the most competitive schools in the country. Yeah i'd say that bodes pretty well for him. Who was that nobody that Terelle Pryor had a hard time taking the starting job from at Overrated State, err, I mean Ohio State?

I'm not big on Texas' history of QB's, atleast not recently. My opinion of VY hasn't exactly been a secret since he entered the draft, Mccoy's got potential to be a solid pro certainly, but Chris Simms what happened there? They haven't done as well in recent years with QB's as their history implies and certainly not anywhere near as well as USC. LOL, Cassell is just a slap in the face to every other school who thinks they've got a rich QB history. The guy didn't start a single college game at the QB position his entire time there yet he still got drafted and signed a $63 million deal recently.

[MarvinMartian]

Barkley and Gibert will be fighting it out the next 3 years just like Colt and Sam Bradford have been in the Big 12.

They both will probably be the high rated QB's coming out whenever they come out.

[Texecutioner]

Yes he's going to be great just because he goes to USC. Well that and the fact that the dude was a nightmare in HS, one of the countries top recruits, and as a true freshman is probably going to win the starting QB job at one of the most competitive schools in the country. Yeah i'd say that bodes pretty well for him. Who was that nobody that Terelle Pryor had a hard time taking the starting job from at Overrated State, err, I mean Ohio State?

Hey, I don't know anything about this kid, but if you noticed I didn't doubt Kiper's drewling of him, nor did I doubt you and Teamer's either, simply because he's going to be the next guy at USC and I know good and well that USC isn't about to roll with some guy that isn't great. It's USC for god sakes. You're failing to realize that Texas is the same though and no different.


I'm not big on Texas' history of QB's, atleast not recently. My opinion of VY hasn't exactly been a secret since he entered the draft, Mccoy's got potential to be a solid pro certainly, but Chris Simms what happened there? They haven't done as well in recent years with QB's as their history implies and certainly not anywhere near as well as USC. LOL, Cassell is just a slap in the face to every other school who thinks they've got a rich QB history. The guy didn't start a single college game at the QB position his entire time there yet he still got drafted and signed a $63 million deal recently.

Well I was talking about from a college performance stand point and Texas's recent QB's can't be denied one bit. Regardless of what you think of VY in the pros, he's not only one of the best college QB's of all time, but arguably the best college player of all time that single handedly beat one of the best teams of all time in USC in the Rose Bowl as a Junior. Before him it was Simms, but everyone knows Applewhite should have been starting and as far as Texas QB's go Applewhite was still and always will be a legend there. THe kid was freaking great! It's one of the biggest shameful travesties that Mack Brown started Simms over him because of name recognition and politics alone. Then you've got McCoy who I hope that I don't have to explain on with him being a top Heisman candidate who should have won it I might add and really only lost it because Harrell made that come back against Texas last season where Texas lost a game later in the season as oppose to Oklahoma losing earlier which was to McCoy where McCoy won that shoot out to the actual Heisman winner. AND on top of that another GREAT QB, that many people forget that came out of Texas is Jeven Snead (One of the best QB's in the country) who lost the QB battle to McCoy and had to sit the bench his first season where he transferred (and rightfully so) to Ole Miss and is currently tearing it up out there and will also be a HUGE PROSPECT for the NFL draft either this season or next. If you haven't watched Snead much, I suggest you do so, because he's fantastic.

And as far as the pros go, you can talk about VY not panning out in the pros, but neither has your boy Leinhart either who was one of the best college QB's of all time.

Now as for Gilbert, just look up some of the film on youtube on Garrott Gilbert who will be Texas's next QB to fall behind McCoy. He'll be a Freshman this season and most likely will be red shirted I HOPE. He's also one of the best passers in the country and players for that matter as far as 5 star rankings and all. No doubt in my mind you'll be impressed. He's far more talented than McCoy was when McCoy was recruited. Most people don't even realize it but McCoy was only a TWO STAR RECRUIT.

[|(evin|(olb|(ritik]

And as far as the pros go, you can talk about VY not panning out in the pros, but neither has your boy Leinhart either who was one of the best college QB's of all time.


Fair enough, but Leinart has also given us alot less reason to write him off at this point. He's buried behind a pretty damn good QB who has accomplished alot in this league who has proven to have more longevity in his career than anybody expected. He also was never given the keys to the car for an extended period of time. People can complain that Leinart hasn't taken the starting job by force and there is some legitimacy to that until you look at the guy he's got to take it from. Thats almost like complaining that Rodgers didn't take Brett Favres job away from him. Vince had his shot and proved to everybody that he couldn't cut it, Leinart is still waiting on his so we have to delay judgement until it becomes obvious whether or not Leinart can make it in this league.

[Texecutioner]

Fair enough, but Leinart has also given us alot less reason to write him off at this point. He's buried behind a pretty damn good QB who has accomplished alot in this league who has proven to have more longevity in his career than anybody expected. He also was never given the keys to the car for an extended period of time. People can complain that Leinart hasn't taken the starting job by force and there is some legitimacy to that until you look at the guy he's got to take it from. Thats almost like complaining that Rodgers didn't take Brett Favres job away from him. Vince had his shot and proved to everybody that he couldn't cut it, Leinart is still waiting on his so we have to delay judgement until it becomes obvious whether or not Leinart can make it in this league.

What? That isn't exactly true Phil. Leinart was given the job his rookie season the same way VY was and VY actually won ROTY. On both of their 2nd seasons they both began to struggle and then Leinart got hurt and VY played like crap. Going into their 3rd season Leinart was the starter and couldn't keep the job, because he was playing awful in pre season even, so their coach went ahead and gave Warner the nod which obviously was by far the right decision. And I firmly remember you giving him a ton of slack for that decision and thinking he was an idiot for doing that at the time, but hey, he was right.

Now I'd like to see Leinart eventually become the starter as well and do his thing, but just like VY there isn't any indications out there that it will happen at this point and not just because Warner played great, but there really hasn't been any reports about Leinart tearing it up in mini camp or in any practices from last season. Hopefully he does, because I like the guy, but at this point I'm not that confident that he ever will.

[Texecutioner]

Barkley and Gibert will be fighting it out the next 3 years just like Colt and Sam Bradford have been in the Big 12.

They both will probably be the high rated QB's coming out whenever they come out.

I'm so freaking stoked to see what Gilbert does when he gets in there man. For the people that aren't aware of his name now, they will soon be very shortly. :)

[|(evin|(olb|(ritik]

What? That isn't exactly true Phil. Leinart was given the job his rookie season the same way VY was and VY actually won ROTY. On both of their 2nd seasons they both began to struggle and then Leinart got hurt and VY played like crap. Going into their 3rd season Leinart was the starter and couldn't keep the job, because he was playing awful in pre season even, so their coach went ahead and gave Warner the nod which obviously was by far the right decision. And I firmly remember you giving him a ton of slack for that decision and thinking he was an idiot for doing that at the time, but hey, he was right.

Now I'd like to see Leinart eventually become the starter as well and do his thing, but just like VY there isn't any indications out there that it will happen at this point and not just because Warner played great, but there really hasn't been any reports about Leinart tearing it up in mini camp or in any practices from last season. Hopefully he does, because I like the guy, but at this point I'm not that confident that he ever will.

No it is 100% true. When was Leinart ever given the reigns of the team for an extended period of time? Don't give me that rookie season junk either, the guy was a freaking rookie!!!!! Nor did he look completely terrible his rookie year, Leinart held his own his rookie season. It wasn't the highlight filled hypefest that Vince got his rookie year but it wasn't bad.

His 2nd year he got hurt like you said. The guy had played 5 games, didn't show anything special and then Warner caught fire and it was never really Leinarts job again after that. Leinart played 1 bad preseason game the following year and the job was given to Warner permanently. 1 preseason game? Comon. Its obvious the coaching staff was just looking for an excuse to give Warner the job fulltime and that was the one they needed. It was probably a good decision, but it doesnt change the fact that Leinart has still not proven whether or not he can play in this league. The sampling is simply too small. Leinart has only started the equivalent of 1 season, 16 starts over in his first 2 seasons and none in his 3rd and had his development opportunity cut short by injury, thats it. Vince on the other hand has not only started almost twice as many games and held the job for long stretches of time but lost his job outright because the better player took it from him.

Their paths aren't all that similar. I'm not as confident in Leinart as I once was, nor am I as forgiving, but until he gives us definitive evidence that he can't play in this league I have to give him the benefit of the doubt. Vince gave us that already and I don't even write Vince off yet. I've seen too many stories from guys like Kurt Warner or Jeff Garcia or even Aaron Rodgers for me to completely write off a guy like Vince Young. I can play the odds and make a prediction based on those odds and how I see them working out, but nobody can be 100% certain whats going to happen with a human being in 5 or 7 years.

For all I know JP Losman could hone his skills in the UFL and come back a renewed man. I wouldn't bet on it and it'd be something i'd have to see to believe but I wouldn't count it out either.

The next time Leinart is given an opportunity to take that job if he fails, there is no more slack for him. He's been in the league and the system long enough now that if he can't get it done next time he probably never will.

[Dreamers]

I'm I the only one that does not get why USCs QB are over rated every single time they come up on draft day. Seriously why are people still buying these guys, they are all garbage IMO. The only one I've ever liked was Paul McDonald and he never even got his shot.

[Chris Raiden]

I'm I the only one that does not get why USCs QB are over rated every single time they come up on draft day. Seriously why are people still buying these guys, they are all garbage IMO. The only one I've ever liked was Paul McDonald and he never even got his shot.
Palmer turned out pretty good, so I don't think ALL of them are overrated, maybe just some of them.

Sanchez is still up in the air, but looks good early. Leinart can still turn it around, perhaps not in Arizona, but he's still a young guy.

[|(evin|(olb|(ritik]

I'm I the only one that does not get why USCs QB are over rated every single time they come up on draft day. Seriously why are people still buying these guys, they are all garbage IMO. The only one I've ever liked was Paul McDonald and he never even got his shot.

LOL, funny coming from a guy whose team just drafted Mark Sanchez, likely the best QB in this last years draft.

As Raiden said, Palmer turned out pretty damn good didn't he?

Hello Matt Cassell. Who can say drafting him was a mistake?

Leinarts still got a future ahead of him. Hard to argue against drafting him.

John David Booty was a 5th round pick and had alot of college sucess. How can you complain about that?

Its hard to argue with their recent crop, and history hasn't been so bad for them either. The real question is what problem do you have with these guys to assert that they didn't deserve to be drafted?

[Texecutioner]

Palmer turned out pretty good, so I don't think ALL of them are overrated, maybe just some of them.

Sanchez is still up in the air, but looks good early. Leinart can still turn it around, perhaps not in Arizona, but he's still a young guy.

Not to mention Cassel as well if he ends up playing well in KC. That wasn't exactly an accurate assessment of USC QB's by Dreamers.

[Chris Raiden]

LOL, funny coming from a guy whose team just drafted Mark Sanchez, likely the best QB in this last years draft.

As Raiden said, Palmer turned out pretty damn good didn't he?

Hello Matt Cassell. Who can say drafting him was a mistake?

Leinarts still got a future ahead of him. Hard to argue against drafting him.

John David Booty was a 5th round pick and had alot of college sucess. How can you complain about that?

Its hard to argue with their recent crop, and history hasn't been so bad for them either. The real question is what problem do you have with these guys to assert that they didn't deserve to be drafted?

John David Booty's probably the best example here, if USC's quarterbacks were as overrated on draft day as Dreamers claims they are, Booty'd have been picked well before he was.

[Dreamers]

LOL, funny coming from a guy whose team just drafted Mark Sanchez, likely the best QB in this last years draft.

As Raiden said, Palmer turned out pretty damn good didn't he?

Hello Matt Cassell. Who can say drafting him was a mistake?

Leinarts still got a future ahead of him. Hard to argue against drafting him.

John David Booty was a 5th round pick and had alot of college sucess. How can you complain about that?

Its hard to argue with their recent crop, and history hasn't been so bad for them either. The real question is what problem do you have with these guys to assert that they didn't deserve to be drafted?

Your kidding me right!!!! Not one of them have done a thing.

Palmer - Was hyped as the next great thing and is no were near that so yes I'd say he was drasticly overrated. #1 overall 1 playoff 0 wins well into his career.

Cassell - Never even started a game for USC and was considered a top 10 QB that year. Yes he may break the mold but with one year in NE I'm not saying anything yet.

Leinart - was the guy everyone said the JETS where going to trade up for that year and he not only fell but we still passed on him. He was a top ten rated player that year and he may never lead a team again. Lets see if they take Barkley in 2012.

John David Booty - Had one medacore year at USC and was hyped as a top 5 QB that year. A 5th round was crazy for him. Was Minnis next QB but is 4rd in there rotation behind Gus if he returns.

Todd Marinovich - Do I even have to say more.

Rodney Peete - Was given ever op in the world and still could not produce.

Rob Johnson - The only one that has had any real success and will forever be seen as a great backup.

Paul McDonald - Was the only one of the group I've ever liked and he never got his shot.

That is a sad group of busts and career backups if you ask me. Yes at this point I am calling Palmer a bust.

[StevenSD]

OMG Palmer didn't even play for a full quarter in his only playoff appearence and you ARE holding that game as something against him? Jesus, nothing can make you happy unless it's perfect.

[Dreamers]

OMG Palmer didn't even play for a full quarter in his only playoff appearence and you ARE holding that game as something against him? Jesus, nothing can make you happy unless it's perfect.

That is not the point he was supposed to be the next big thing and 7 years later not one playoff win. Now his window is closing and the guy should be in his prime.

[Chris Raiden]

Your kidding me right!!!! Not one of them have done a thing.

Palmer - Was hyped as the next great thing and is no were near that so yes I'd say he was drasticly overrated. #1 overall 1 playoff 0 wins well into his career.

Cassell - Never even started a game for USC and was considered a top 10 QB that year. Yes he may break the mold but with one year in NE I'm not saying anything yet.

Ok, you're way off on using the overall history here, the rest of us are talking about the Carroll era, recent history.

Second, these two in particular. Palmer's never had even a good, let alone, great defense to work with, and the Bengals franchise's struggles have NOT been due to anything Palmer has done.

And I'm a guy with every reason to blame him for it, I'm a Browns fan, and believe me, defending Cincinnati or any player thereof isn't a picnic for me.

Second, Cassel, he was the 12th quarterback to be drafted that year, in the seventh round. How was he a top ten quarterback exactly?

[Dreamers]

Ok, you're way off on using the overall history here, the rest of us are talking about the Carroll era, recent history.

Second, these two in particular. Palmer's never had even a good, let alone, great defense to work with, and the Bengals franchise's struggles have NOT been due to anything Palmer has done.

And I'm a guy with every reason to blame him for it, I'm a Browns fan, and believe me, defending Cincinnati or any player thereof isn't a picnic for me.

Second, Cassel, he was the 12th quarterback to be drafted that year, in the seventh round. How was he a top ten quarterback exactly?

Cassel was high on most scouts lists but lack of game film scared a lot of people away. The fact that he was even drafted after not being a starter in college is a little shocking. Name me one other QB ever drafted that never started a game in college. That was not a bad class in the back end either. He did have a lot of talent but it was basicly a blind pick based on HS film and good workouts. But the guy that drafted him had worked with him in the past which I'm OK with that. Out of all the resent USC QB he may be the best but 1 year in NE is hardly proof of anything.

[Dreamers]

Ok, you're way off on using the overall history here, the rest of us are talking about the Carroll era, recent history.

Second, these two in particular. Palmer's never had even a good, let alone, great defense to work with, and the Bengals franchise's struggles have NOT been due to anything Palmer has done.

And I'm a guy with every reason to blame him for it, I'm a Browns fan, and believe me, defending Cincinnati or any player thereof isn't a picnic for me.

Second, Cassel, he was the 12th quarterback to be drafted that year, in the seventh round. How was he a top ten quarterback exactly?

Sorry to make a second point. Great QBs do tend to make the playoffs without a great D. The Colts Ds was no better and SF had a horrid D in the early 80s. If you think Zonas D last year was better check that again and the same goes for the Saints when they made it. OK he did not play the one year they made it but he should have more then one playoff game if he really is as good as every one thought. Maybe I just expected a lot from him but at this point in his career I call him an average QB and that is no where near what I expected of him.

[|(evin|(olb|(ritik]

Dreamers, you really ought to get checked out for schitzophrenia, and I mean that in the nicest way possible.

NOBODY had Matt Cassell as a top 10 QB in that draft. When that pick came down it was a complete no-holds barred shock to everybody who was watching. The ONLY and I repeat ONLY reason that pick wasn't criticized to hell and back was because of Tom Brady. Everybody kept saying and I quote "Belicheck is trying to find the next Tom Brady steal of the draft." Nobody thought that Matt Cassell was that guy, but nobody was going to question Belichecks strategy of taking a chance on a late round guy who nobody had ever heard of because it had worked once before.

And then with John David Booty. Do you remember that draft? JDB was the 6th QB taken I believe (somebody correct me if im wrong) and lasted till the 5th round. That was one hell of a weak QB draft. Ryan and Flacco went in the 1st then you had names like Brian Brohm, Chad Henne, and Kevin O'Connell go before JDB. If thats his competition then i'm not sure anybody can disagree that he's the 5th best QB in the draft. Of the guys drafted after him who was clearly better? I think you're gonna be hard pressed to find a difiinitive answer on that one.

Your Palmer criticisms are just ridiculous. The guy is one of the best QB prospects to show up in the NFL in years. Football is a team sport, failing to win a playoff game or consistently make the playoffs when he plays for one of the worst run franchises in the league isn't a reflection of Palmers individual skill or his value as a professional football player.

Leinart will have his chance to prove whether or not he can live up to his draft status, but that day isn't going to come until the legend who is playing in front of him either gets out of the way or is forced out of the way.

[Dreamers]

Dreamers, you really ought to get checked out for schitzophrenia, and I mean that in the nicest way possible.

NOBODY had Matt Cassell as a top 10 QB in that draft. When that pick came down it was a complete no-holds barred shock to everybody who was watching. The ONLY and I repeat ONLY reason that pick wasn't criticized to hell and back was because of Tom Brady. Everybody kept saying and I quote "Belicheck is trying to find the next Tom Brady steal of the draft." Nobody thought that Matt Cassell was that guy, but nobody was going to question Belichecks strategy of taking a chance on a late round guy who nobody had ever heard of because it had worked once before.

And then with John David Booty. Do you remember that draft? JDB was the 6th QB taken I believe (somebody correct me if im wrong) and lasted till the 5th round. That was one hell of a weak QB draft. Ryan and Flacco went in the 1st then you had names like Brian Brohm, Chad Henne, and Kevin O'Connell go before JDB. If thats his competition then i'm not sure anybody can disagree that he's the 5th best QB in the draft. Of the guys drafted after him who was clearly better? I think you're gonna be hard pressed to find a difiinitive answer on that one.

Your Palmer criticisms are just ridiculous. The guy is one of the best QB prospects to show up in the NFL in years. Football is a team sport, failing to win a playoff game or consistently make the playoffs when he plays for one of the worst run franchises in the league isn't a reflection of Palmers individual skill or his value as a professional football player.

Leinart will have his chance to prove whether or not he can live up to his draft status, but that day isn't going to come until the legend who is playing in front of him either gets out of the way or is forced out of the way.

Where do you get this stuff. I live for the draft. I argued Cassel for about two months with people that had him as the 4th best guy that year and he had never played. He fell in that draft because of that but but he had a lot of good workouts. That pick was not surprising at all to people that follow the draft he was rated high. I had JDB as one of the worst QB in that draft but because he was from USC he was ranked high. You can not seriously think he is better then Ainge, Brennan, Woodson, or Josh Johnson. Heck I'd take Matt Flynn or Brandstater over that hack he was just not worth it. I loved Palmer. A lot. He was perhaps the 3rd most hyped QB in the last 10 years and the only one I bought into. He has had one of the best receiving cores in football and has done well but no where and I mean no where as good as what was expected of him. If your going to insult someone at least know what the hell you are talking about.

[|(evin|(olb|(ritik]

Where do you get this stuff. I live for the draft. I argued Cassel for about two months with people that had him as the 4th best guy that year and he had never played. He fell in that draft because of that but but he had a lot of good workouts. That pick was not surprising at all to people that follow the draft he was rated high. I had JDB as one of the worst QB in that draft but because he was from USC he was ranked high. You can not seriously think he is better then Ainge, Brennan, Woodson, or Josh Johnson. Heck I'd take Matt Flynn or Brandstater over that hack he was just not worth it. I loved Palmer. A lot. He was perhaps the 3rd most hyped QB in the last 10 years and the only one I bought into. He has had one of the best receiving cores in football and has done well but no where and I mean no where as good as what was expected of him. If your going to insult someone at least know what the hell you are talking about.

LOL, you argued about Cassel for about two months with people that had him as the 4th best guy that year? Now it makes sense! Who exactly did you argue with? Were these people professionals or were they the same type of self appointed guru's who overhype guys based on workouts at the combine and at prodays? Were these people who you argued with glorified forumites who give too much stock to workout warriors like Chad Jackson?

I never saw any professional draft analyst endorse the Cassell pick without qualifying the statement with "in Belicheck we trust" type comments.

As for Booty, your opinion of those other guys being better than Booty is irrelevant as it is just your opinion and you have no hard evidence to support it. I understand you don't like Booty and thats fine lord knows there are plenty of guys who I don't like, but you have absolutely NO EVIDENCE to support any claim that any of them is any better than Booty at this point as none of them have done a damn thing since entering the league. Them being picked where they were in a weak draft is no less justifiable than Booty being selected where he was.

What was expected of Palmer? Was it expected that he would win superbowls simply by showing up, erase the troubled history of his franchise, that girls would run promiscuously through the streets upon sight of him, and gold would shower down upon him from the heavens? If you have a problem with what Palmer has done so far in his career it seems to me that the problem is with your own expectations moreso than anything he's done wrong. I seem to remember alot of questions surrouding the mental aspect of Palmers game when he entered the draft. People were afraid that he was nothing more than a great arm and didn't have it upstairs to make it in the NFL. If you thought he was going to revolutionize the game and take that Bengal franchise straight to the top overnight then thats your bad, not his.

[l.a. no-teamers]

I had JDB as one of the worst QB in that draft but because he was from USC he was ranked high.

Funny thing is, he was ranked higher before he ever even stepped foot on USC's campus. His stock dropped at SC. So this 'because he was from USC' gibberish doesn't even make sense.

[l.a. no-teamers]

Hey, I don't know anything about this kid, but if you noticed I didn't doubt Kiper's drewling of him, nor did I doubt you and Teamer's either, simply because he's going to be the next guy at USC and I know good and well that USC isn't about to roll with some guy that isn't great. It's USC for god sakes. You're failing to realize that Texas is the same though and no different.

To be quite honest with you, this thread was just reporting what Kiper said, me 'hyping' is all in fun. I couldn't tell you if he's the real deal, I just know he's the most hyped Southern California prep QB in quite a long time.

I've seen his highlight reels, and it's great, but it's just highlight reels. He actually had a substandard senior year in HS, but supposedly his entire offense had graduated the year prior, so he basically carried that whole team his senior year, and as a result, his stats suffered. I kind of wavered off the hype after that, but then when he looked great in the all star camps, and was spectacular in the under armour game. Word was that it was like that all week in the practices, that no QB even came close to him. I mean, he didn't just have a good game, he made some dazzling throws that you only see in the pros. One of his TDs was a fade down the sideline and it just dropped into the receivers hands, it was nasty. I was back on the bandwagon after that.

The 'hype' is he's the first High school JR to win the Gatorade Prep player of the year. He comes from Mater Dei, which most produced college QB studs Matt Leinart and Colt Brennan. He is the only Mater Dei QB ever to be trusted with the authority to call and audible plays at the line. Even the aforementioned Leinart and Brennan weren't allowed to do that. Barkley began doing that as a sophomore.

He's also got some Tim Tebow in him, in that he's a ultra religious kid who spends his vacations volunteering in South African orphanages. Not kidding.


as a true freshman is probably going to win the starting QB job at one of the most competitive schools in the country.

I dont think that will be true. Despite what Carroll says, it sounds like Corp has a pretty big lead over Barkley and Mustain. I dont think we'll see Barkley take the reigns for another 2-3 years.

[Dreamers]

Funny thing is, he was ranked higher before he ever even stepped foot on USC's campus. His stock dropped at SC. So this 'because he was from USC' gibberish doesn't even make sense.

Yeah I was thinking about that as I was writing and that is the best argument for him I've heard. His stock dropped because he just did not look all that good at USC. He was expected to step in and tear it up then did not do anything all that special. If he had looked that like that anywhere else he would and should have dropped of the board. Ainge by far looked better that year but there was that he chokes in pressure situations tag that just did not seem fair to me. Fact is USC or not he was just over rated all around.

[Dreamers]

LOL, you argued about Cassel for about two months with people that had him as the 4th best guy that year? Now it makes sense! Who exactly did you argue with? Were these people professionals or were they the same type of self appointed guru's who overhype guys based on workouts at the combine and at prodays? Were these people who you argued with glorified forumites who give too much stock to workout warriors like Chad Jackson?

I never saw any professional draft analyst endorse the Cassell pick without qualifying the statement with "in Belicheck we trust" type comments.

As for Booty, your opinion of those other guys being better than Booty is irrelevant as it is just your opinion and you have no hard evidence to support it. I understand you don't like Booty and thats fine lord knows there are plenty of guys who I don't like, but you have absolutely NO EVIDENCE to support any claim that any of them is any better than Booty at this point as none of them have done a damn thing since entering the league. Them being picked where they were in a weak draft is no less justifiable than Booty being selected where he was.

What was expected of Palmer? Was it expected that he would win superbowls simply by showing up, erase the troubled history of his franchise, that girls would run promiscuously through the streets upon sight of him, and gold would shower down upon him from the heavens? If you have a problem with what Palmer has done so far in his career it seems to me that the problem is with your own expectations moreso than anything he's done wrong. I seem to remember alot of questions surrouding the mental aspect of Palmers game when he entered the draft. People were afraid that he was nothing more than a great arm and didn't have it upstairs to make it in the NFL. If you thought he was going to revolutionize the game and take that Bengal franchise straight to the top overnight then thats your bad, not his.

Do not remember who it was but it was based solely on his first two workouts. Hey they had a point I think NE was one of the teams that where impressed with him but still he had never shown anything in college. Do not get me wrong it was a good pick but he was ranked higher then he should have been based on nothing but speculation.

It is my opinion and I am entitled to that. I really liked the back end of that class and did not have Bootty nearly as high as everyone else. In the same aspect he hasn't done anything to prove me wrong. Quite a few of those guys have done more then him already but no of them have done anything note worthy.

Like I said I bought into Palmer, my bad, he is an average QB now and I expected him to be much much better. Every QB has his "questions" I can't remember one that did not. Even McNair, who I loved, was questionable simply because he played in Alcorn state. If you look hard enough you will find something that you do not like in every one. Tebow is arguably the best college QB ever but will be tagged as a questionable pro style QB. I ask you should he be seen any different from Vince Young. And I bet he does not go nearly as high as Vince did. But it is hard for any #1 to live up to that pressure and expectations. My point there being Palmer was flat out over hyped. USC or not.

I know I wondered a bit on that last one sorry about that.

[|(evin|(olb|(ritik]

Overall I think this is a much better response with more reasonable answers.



Do not remember who it was but it was based solely on his first two workouts. Hey they had a point I think NE was one of the teams that where impressed with him but still he had never shown anything in college. Do not get me wrong it was a good pick but he was ranked higher then he should have been based on nothing but speculation.


You know what i'll NEVER allow myself to do as a man who considers himself to be a sensible football student? I'll never bash a pick that was proven correct regardless of whether or not I agreed with it at the time.

If a guy turns out to be better than anybody else knew, thats just good scouting, better than anybody elses scouting for sure. I bashed the Donte Whitner pick by the Bills when it was made, I was wrong, dude turned out to be the best safety in that draft class. I can't bash it now. We can argue that the Bills could have gotten him for better value later, but considering what he turned out to be he's lived up to that draft status.



It is my opinion and I am entitled to that. I really liked the back end of that class and did not have Bootty nearly as high as everyone else. In the same aspect he hasn't done anything to prove me wrong. Quite a few of those guys have done more then him already but no of them have done anything note worthy.


I won't take your opinion away from you. Again though its hard to argue that he guy wasn't worth a 5th round pick. Here you had a sucessful starter from a big program who ran a prostyle offense. Sure he had shortcomings, but nobody who was drafted after him didn't. At that point in the draft its more about personal preference than it is actual ranking. How many times do we see guys who have 3rd or 4th round ratings drop to the 6th or 7th because it just turns out that teams favor other guys more who we didn't necessarily see coming? Thats how it goes in the later rounds, its got little to do with mainstream ranking, its about coaches and scouts who like a particular guy for reasons that aren't solely based on how that dude stacks up in the predetermined order of skill. If a coach things that QB 8 can fit into his system and do some different things than QB 6, he might take the 8th guy in the 5th round before the 6th dude because the difference is neglegible and neither guy is probably good enough to stay with the team long term anyway.



Like I said I bought into Palmer, my bad, he is an average QB now and I expected him to be much much better. Every QB has his "questions" I can't remember one that did not. Even McNair, who I loved, was questionable simply because he played in Alcorn state. If you look hard enough you will find something that you do not like in every one. Tebow is arguably the best college QB ever but will be tagged as a questionable pro style QB. I ask you should he be seen any different from Vince Young. And I bet he does not go nearly as high as Vince did. But it is hard for any #1 to live up to that pressure and expectations. My point there being Palmer was flat out over hyped. USC or not.

I know I wondered a bit on that last one sorry about that.


I wouldn't call Palmer an average QB by any means. I'd call him a great QB who got off to a great start but who plays for one of the worst run franchises in the history of the NFL and ran into some tough times recently. I've got no doubt that Palmer is going to bounce back, im not sure if it'll be this year but it'll come.

[Hawkeye]

Sorry to make a second point. Great QBs do tend to make the playoffs without a great D. The Colts Ds was no better and SF had a horrid D in the early 80s. If you think Zonas D last year was better check that again and the same goes for the Saints when they made it. OK he did not play the one year they made it but he should have more then one playoff game if he really is as good as every one thought. Maybe I just expected a lot from him but at this point in his career I call him an average QB and that is no where near what I expected of him.

Second sentence is FALSE. Great QBs don’t TEND to make the playoffs without a great D. They CAN make the playoffs without one, but they don’t tend to. Third sentence is completely FALSE also. SF did not have a horrid defense in the early 80s….where the heck were you? 81 (their first playoff year under Walsh)-2nd in total D, 2nd in scoring D; 82 was a strike shortened season; 83-10th and 4th; 84-10th and 1st; and 85-14th and 2nd. So much for that theory.

As far as the Colts being no better, Manning has only missed the playoffs twice and both times they had the #29 defense. Six times in nine playoff years he’s had a top 15 defense. Four times in his nine playoff years they have had a top 7 scoring defense. Eight times in nine playoffs years the Colts have finished (10,1,9,17,17,9,24,8) spots ahead of the Bengals in total defense. So you can’t even compare them to how bad the Bengals have been.

[Dreamers]

Second sentence is FALSE. Great QBs don’t TEND to make the playoffs without a great D. They CAN make the playoffs without one, but they don’t tend to. Third sentence is completely FALSE also. SF did not have a horrid defense in the early 80s….where the heck were you? 81 (their first playoff year under Walsh)-2nd in total D, 2nd in scoring D; 82 was a strike shortened season; 83-10th and 4th; 84-10th and 1st; and 85-14th and 2nd. So much for that theory.

As far as the Colts being no better, Manning has only missed the playoffs twice and both times they had the #29 defense. Six times in nine playoff years he’s had a top 15 defense. Four times in his nine playoff years they have had a top 7 scoring defense. Eight times in nine playoffs years the Colts have finished (10,1,9,17,17,9,24,8) spots ahead of the Bengals in total defense. So you can’t even compare them to how bad the Bengals have been.

Alright bad choice of words. I love SF in the early 80 but those had to be some of the worst teams to win a SB. They never had the pieces to to run the show on D. Their #s where not as good as your making them out to be. Going back and watching some of those games are always fun because it was like a magic show when they where on D. Maybe not a bad D but was never a dominate one.

The Colt D have never been great they have just always had the coaching to play around it. I have to believe their current roaster may be their best D to date but who know what will happen. You could say coaching have been the difference if you want but Lewis is not a bad coach and has made a lot of good calls. This team just always seems to fall short and it is not one mans fault. The blame has to be with the whole team here and Palmer is the centerpiece of that team. Yes it is not his fault this team has been built around a bunch of misfits but he has had the talent around him none the less.

Weather you want to contest it or not Palmer has had his chances and nothing. Ever Jake Plummer was able to take Zona to the playoffs and win at least one. I think Palmer had a much high expectations then Jake and there is no way that Bengals have been that bad of a team. His career has not been to far off Jakes minus about 100+ sacks at this point. Dramatization I know I'm too lazy to look it up sack #s right now but Jake took a beating. Jake was in a like position and had proved more IMO at this point in his career then Palmer has.

[Chris Raiden]

Ever Jake Plummer was able to take Zona to the playoffs and win at least one.

Palmer took the Bengals to the playoffs once, but as was already pointed out in this thread, he was hurt in the first half, tore an ACL as I recall, when the Bengals were still in the game.

I venture so far as to say it's a completely different ballgame if Carson Palmer doesn't blow out his knee on a questionable hit below the knee.

It's also worth noting that this "average" quarterback as you call him has never piloted a team to worse than a 7-9 record when he's been the full time starter. He's also got more winning seasons in his career (1) than the Bengals had had since 1991 without him (0), which seems to point to organizational deficiency, not the quarterback.

[BigBenCan7]

Palmer took the Bengals to the playoffs once, but as was already pointed out in this thread, he was hurt in the first half, tore an ACL as I recall, when the Bengals were still in the game.

Well, they were still in the game, but the injury came on Palmer's first pass of the game.

[Chris Raiden]

Well, they were still in the game, but the injury came on Palmer's first pass of the game.
And then they weren't in the game after that. A month earlier, with Palmer in the saddle, they'd beaten the Steelers 38-31 in Pittsburgh, and this game was in Cincinnati.

But yeah, I'd forgotten it was his first pass of the game when he was injured. I just remembered first half, probably first quarter.

[BigBenCan7]

And then they weren't in the game after that.

They were up 17-7 with 4 minutes left in the first half.

[Chris Raiden]

They were up 17-7 with 4 minutes left in the first half.
What game am I thinking of?

Then Roethlisberger led the Steelers back in the second half 17 unanswered points, Steelers win, Kitna winds up in Detroit the next year.

I really need to reread box scores more often...

[BigBenCan7]

What game am I thinking of?

Then Roethlisberger led the Steelers back in the second half 17 unanswered points, Steelers win, Kitna winds up in Detroit the next year.

I really need to reread box scores more often...

Yeah, that loss can't really be put on Palmer's shoulders. Kitna's little hands and the Bengals shoddy defense are much higher on the blame list.

But it is a little disheartening when a team's franchise quarterback has only been able to muster up one winning season in his 5 years since being named the starter.

[StevenSD]

But it is a little disheartening when a team's franchise quarterback has only been able to muster up one winning season in his 5 years since being named the starter.

at least 8-8 is not a losing season, and last year he didnt even play the majority of the year because of injury (either that or the Bengals FO was smart enough to keep him off the field), but again as pointed out, his FO has really done nothing to help him on either side of the ball. it always sucks when you see an extremely talented guy like Palmer stuck in a place that continually goes no where... no offense bengal fans but a lot of you sound that way anyway...

[Hawkeye]

Alright bad choice of words. I love SF in the early 80 but those had to be some of the worst teams to win a SB. They never had the pieces to to run the show on D. Their #s where not as good as your making them out to be. Going back and watching some of those games are always fun because it was like a magic show when they where on D. Maybe not a bad D but was never a dominate one.

What I am making them out to be is NOT horrible. ESPN called the 81 team the 25th best SB team of all-time and the 84 team the 5th best. Never had the pieces? Ronnie Lott (81-90), Eric Wright (81-90), Keena Turner (80-90), Dwaine Board (79-87), Fred Dean (81-85), Dwight Hicks (79-85), Hacksaw Reynolds (81-84) and Michael Carter (84-92). Dean and Lott are in the Hall of Fame. The numbers are indisputable. Four top four finishes in scoring defense. That is dominant.




The Colt D have never been great they have just always had the coaching to play around it. I have to believe their current roaster may be their best D to date but who know what will happen. You could say coaching have been the difference if you want but Lewis is not a bad coach and has made a lot of good calls. This team just always seems to fall short and it is not one mans fault. The blame has to be with the whole team here and Palmer is the centerpiece of that team. Yes it is not his fault this team has been built around a bunch of misfits but he has had the talent around him none the less.

Never said the Colts D was great. They were light years ahead of the Bengals though. I didn’t say coaching was the difference…..I didn’t even mention coaches. I don’t know whether it was coaching or lack of talent or team chemistry, but the fact is the Bengals were horrible. Much worse than the Colts Ds that Manning has had. You say that the blame falls on the team, but then you single out Palmer as the centerpiece, so you’re basically just circling back to blame him again.


Weather you want to contest it or not Palmer has had his chances and nothing. Ever Jake Plummer was able to take Zona to the playoffs and win at least one. I think Palmer had a much high expectations then Jake and there is no way that Bengals have been that bad of a team. His career has not been to far off Jakes minus about 100+ sacks at this point. Dramatization I know I'm too lazy to look it up sack #s right now but Jake took a beating. Jake was in a like position and had proved more IMO at this point in his career then Palmer has.

Who cares about Plummer? Jim Plunkett and Trent Dilfer both won a SB and I don’t think they are better QBs than Palmer. Compare their numbers to the same point in their careers….68 games for Plummer and 66 for Palmer.

Plummer: 56% completions, 72 TDs, 94 ints., 179 sacks, rating of 68.9.
Palmer: 63% completions, 107 TDs, 67 ints., 108 sacks, rating of 88.9.

They aren’t even close. So no…..Plummer had not proved more than Palmer has.