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YoHoChecko
03-25-2007, 03:05 PM
Moss to the Packers? (Part Two)

by
Max Gross

In part one, I examined the on-the-field reasons that a Randy-Moss marriage would work out with the Packers. Expectedly, it garnered little response, either because my views are already well-known or because my arguments made too much sense to attempt a counter-argument. This next segment, however, will be much less black-and-white and is likely to be more controversial (I’ll be saving the best for last, so keep reading). Without further ado, let’s explore together…

Randy Moss and the Green Bay Packers Off the Field

Nuts and Bolts

To consummate a trade, two very important questions must be assessed first. What is Moss worth in trade and in salary? In salary, Moss has agreed to restructure, but the nature of the restructuring is unknown. In the new cap market, it has been established that any above-average starter is going to haul in at least $5 million per year, much to the chagrin of cap managers around the league. Moss is scheduled to earn around $20 million over the next two seasons. Ideally, Moss would sign a sort of “prove-it” deal in which the team made a limited commitment to him in year one, with an option bonus that kicks in in year two, making it easy to release him if the match does not work out.

However, Moss is unlikely to accept a deal that pays him so little in year one. This leaves the option of the Charles Woodson-type deal. In essence, Charles Woodson was given a large roster bonus in year one, giving him a good amount of compensation, but still making it easy to release him. Further bonuses and then incremental salary increases follow. It’s basically a prove-it deal, with extra roster bonus money to eat up unused cap space and get the player to sign. If Moss gets a similar deal to Woodson, he will be fairly compensated, have incentives to play and to play well, and will be low risk for the cap-space-abundant Packers: $8-10 million in year one salary and bonuses with a deal that averages a total of $6/year over the first 3 years plus incentives would not be entirely upsetting.

As for trade compensation, a few factors must be considered. First of all, what receivers in the draft could bring the combination of red zone and downfield impacts that Moss offer. The closest I can see are guys like Dwayne Bowe and Sidney Rice—even Dwayne Jarrett, despite their lesser high-end speed. Additionally, a risk on a guy like a Jacoby Jones could be a similar fit. These players seem to be late first round to early second round players, and Jones figures to be a borderline day one pick. None are likely to have as immediate impacts as Moss, yet none come with the history of character concerns. Furthermore, all have more years and juice left in their tanks, and the potential to offer more long term than Moss could offer. For this reason, the pick compensation has to be discounted. That leaves the thinking that anywhere from a mid-second round pick to a mid-third round pick could be justified, or equivalent combinations of picks and players. The Packers would probably be willing to offer a 3rd round pick and a player or two, including a veteran receiver (Ferguson?), offensive line help (Kevin Barry?) or a defensive player (Gbaja-Biamila?) to make up the difference. That level of compensation would be fair, in this writer’s mind.

The Other Off-Field Issues

Much of the talk about Moss to the Packers focuses on the youth of the team and the example Randy Moss would set with his poor work ethic. What a negative impact Moss could have on the youth of the team! However, the offense, really, is not entirely young, and the defense is highly unlikely to get much time around the enigmatic receiver. Furthermore, I think an equally common question could be: what impact could the Green Bay Packers have on Moss?

Many of the readers may not know very much about Donald Driver—the person. Here is a run-down of some of the details. Donald Driver and his four siblings spent time living in the back of a U-haul truck. Driver sold drugs; he stole cars. His father was in jail. He has a very troubled and checkered past. He was able to turn his life around, though, gaining an athletic scholarship to Alcorn St and battling onto the roster from a lowly 7th round draft pick. He has since been granted the “Walter Payton Man of the Year” and the “Ed Block Courage” awards for his extensive work in the community, including his foundation that offers assistance to underprivileged and homeless families. He has also received contract extensions through hard work and without the threat of hold-outs, for what that’s worth.

Donald Driver not only will have no possibility of being negatively impacted by Moss, but his story, his personality, his leadership reminds me of a Chris Carter-type figure that can help to keep his teammates on the right track. He undoubtedly has already had an impact on Greg Jennings, who many might feel would be most apt to any negative influences from Moss. Well let’s look at Jennings: the son of a pastor and a Christian missionary, Jennings has served as a mentor in the Big Brothers/Big Sisters program in his hometown of Kalamazoo. He is two-years’ married to his high school sweetheart whom he has known since fifth grade. He wasn’t recruited to major universities, and has worked his way into the NFL by dominating his smaller-school competition despite average speed by becoming a student of the game and mastering the position’s intricacies. Furthermore, Jennings is open to having Moss on his team. In an interview with Fox Sports' Adam Schein, Jennings said, "I would love to play with Randy. I really would. It would pay major dividends for me as I would be freed up with the attention he would demand... I would feed off of what he's done in his career," later adding that "I would think Randy would fit in our locker room. And we have obviously discussed this among each other.” This young guy just seems ripe for corruption by a guy such as Moss, doesn’t he?

Moss a Leader?

In Minnesota, Moss was seen as somewhat of a leader—the leader that Daunte Culpepper failed to be, in fact. Many feel that Moss’ leadership role influenced the team in a negative manner, despite his often strong off-the-field work ethic along with teammates Chris Carter and the aforementioned Culpepper. I would, to an extent, agree. However, I feel that it is not Moss’ attitude that set a bad example and influenced teammates, but moreso the special treatment he was afforded by the coaching staff.

Be it the “Randy Ratio,” or just various other reports of preferential treatment, the Tice regime in Minnesota coddled Randy Moss and set the example that, if you’re good enough, it doesn’t matter what you do—you won’t be held accountable. THAT was the damaging aspect to the development and work ethic of the rest of the team, not Moss himself, because almost every NFL player thinks he is good enough to be above the rules. If the coaching staff establishes the precedent that some players are above the rules, then the structure loses all credibility.

In his first season as a head coach, Mike McCarthy, along with the acquisitions through the draft by Ted Thompson, has established more of a blue collar, hard working environment than under the previous regime. This was most evident in press conferences when the excuse-making for Favre that had predominated the past several years seemed to have ceased. Favre was often criticized in press conferences for the mistakes he made, no excuses. No special treatment. No brushing his faults under the rug—yet still enough supportive words and gushing compliments not to alienate the star QB from the coaching staff.

On the Topic of Favre

The most common question and most controversial of my points today: Can Favre and Moss coexist? Despite the fact that by several accounts, Favre is pushing hard for the move and that multiple sources—including but not limited to their mutual agent—claim that the two men have always had immense respect for each other, it is difficult for many to fathom these two personalities interacting peacefully. How could a troublemaking receiver who has awful fundamentals, gets by on raw ability, and only plays well when his team is winning games get along with a troubled-past quarterback with awful fundamentals who gets by on raw ability and only plays well when his team is winning games?

That last question requires some explanation, huh? Randy Moss and Brett Favre have both always played football to have fun. With no question, Randy Moss gives full effort far less consistently than other elite players and less than Brett Favre—even when Moss is happy. However, Moss has still played very well and produced at incredible levels when on good teams, especially when he respects his teammates. Favre gets lauded for his fire, competitiveness and passion for the game, yet it was abundantly clear in 2005 that when he ceases to have fun, he also ceases to play with any sense of consequence or intelligent play. Fortunately for Favre and Green Bay, he played 14 seasons before he stopped having fun, but the bottom line is that, like Moss, Favre needs to be enjoying himself to put forth the full effort, preparation, and high-level play for which he is known.

Then you have the troubles: Moss smokes some marijuana. He has some run-ins with authorities in his lifetime. He says a lot of stupid things, and sometimes fights with teammates. Favre was an alcoholic and pain killer addict. Ever wonder why the Falcons gave up on Favre so quickly, trading their 2nd round pick after one season? Reports would inform you that Favre missed meetings, didn’t put in the time required, and was as frequently at bars as he was on the football field. Moss and Favre both were incredibly difficult to coach and control early in their careers but were blessed with the right men to handle the job. Both are outspoken making sometimes-inflammatory comments, only Favre is more likeable and polite in his wording. However, he received plenty of criticism for his stance on Javon Walker and for speaking on the Steve McNair situation, Moss’ comments generally are in reference to himself or his coaches.

So there you have it. The two—despite being immensely different people—are in many ways, two peas in a pod. They can coexist because they both want only to have fun (which means to win). They are both motivated by the same things right now. They both want to play with people they respect and they both respect each other.

In Closing

In total, the Packers seem to have the right coaching attitude in place, the right sort of character at wide receiver surrounding Moss, and the right personality match at quarterback to pull off the risky move to acquire a player such as Moss. They also have the cap space to work out a lower-risk, but still well-compensated deal for Moss, and the trade ammunition to get a deal done, if the Raiders choose to cooperate. There is no denying that Moss is a risk, that Moss' play is determined on his happiness and that Moss will not provide that which he once provided in Minnesota. However, I feel that the Packers will present an atmosphere most conducive to his assimilation into the Green and Gold, and according to Greg Jennings, the Packers players seem to agree that adding him would be both a good thing on the field and that he'd be accepted in the locker room. You can't ask for too much more than that.

jjflr
03-25-2007, 09:26 PM
and according to Greg Jennings, the Packers players seem to agree that adding him would be both a good thing on the field and that he'd be accepted in the locker room. You can't ask for too much more than that.

I ignore everything that comes out of Greg Jennings mouth at this point..............he's the person that said Brett Favre had 'earned' the right to retire whenever he wants because of what he had done in the past..............

WTF ?

What about winning right NOW !?!?!?

I can't believe a player would say that if they have a competitive fire and want to win NOW..................

Maybe he's just thinking his name will 'get' in the record books if he is catching some of Favre's record breaking ducks.............

As far as Moss with ANY team, I've made my point very clear on several other threads on this topic...........

He is worth nothing more than a 3rd round pick at this stage of his career and ANY team that pays him more than $5 million a year is getting ripped off............

He is a lower tier #1/upper tier #2 receiver at this point.................

YoHoChecko
03-25-2007, 09:36 PM
I ignore everything that comes out of Greg Jennings mouth at this point..............he's the person that said Brett Favre had 'earned' the right to retire whenever he wants because of what he had done in the past..............

WTF ?

What about winning right NOW !?!?!?

I can't believe a player would say that if they have a competitive fire and want to win NOW..................First of all, that's an awfully closed-minded approach to take on a guy for one little quote... but how about this one by him: "You hate to say you want to see Brett hang it up, because you really don't. But at the same time, you want to see Aaron get his shot and be successful." Haha; sorta backing off that statement again, huh?


As far as Moss with ANY team, I've made my point very clear on several other threads on this topic...........

He is worth nothing more than a 3rd round pick at this stage of his career and ANY team that pays him more than $5 million a year is getting ripped off............

He is a lower tier #1/upper tier #2 receiver at this point.................
I thought you said that any starter is worth $5 million/year right now; wouldn't that easily include an upper tier #2? At least you're consistent on ignoring the pro Moss arguments (i.e part one)... just not with your own statements :p


therefore, starters SHOULD be making $5-$10 million a year regardless of how good/bad anyone thinks they are..........eventually I will convince everyone of this 'new' fact in the NFL..........

jjflr
03-25-2007, 09:54 PM
First of all, that's an awfully closed-minded approach to take on a guy for one little quote... but how about this one by him: "You hate to say you want to see Brett hang it up, because you really don't. But at the same time, you want to see Aaron get his shot and be successful." Haha; sorta backing off that statement again, huh?

well, i don't know about Jennings backing off of his original statement but his original comment just hit me wrong, obviously



I thought you said that any starter is worth $5 million/year right now; wouldn't that easily include an upper tier #2? At least you're consistent on ignoring the pro Moss arguments (i.e part one)... just not with your own statements :p

What I said was accurate and doesn't contradict anything I've said previously.........I'm saying Moss is worth NO MORE than $5 million/year at this stage of his career...........he is due to make $9 or $10 million (which would be in the tops of the NFL for a WR) so whoever trades for him is going to have to get him to agree to a pay cut of 'half' of what he is suppossed to make............(which is more deserving of his production)

Do you see Randy being a 'team player' and accepting that ?

The ONLY reason I could see Randy accepting that is if taking the pay cut was the only way he could continue playing.........he wouldn't do it just to be a 'team player'............I don't think the guy really cares if he wins a championship or not............that's why he's not BEGGING to be traded to the Patriots and accepting less money to have the privilege to have the best QB in the game throw the ball to him and have the chance to win a SB..............

he's NOT a winner.........he doesn't CARE about winning..............he's done emotionally and mentally and looking back, I'm not sure if he didn't lose 'it' several years ago............

his production has been sporadic at best for a long time...........we saw the team problems the Vikings had for the last few years of the Dennis Green regime and obviously the Raiders have been a mess...............

I think Moss is done in this league as any sort of impact player........he still has professional-caliber talent and that will keep teams interested in him but he's basically the Wide Receiver version of Jeff George and when we reflect back on Moss's career in 10 years, that's who we will compare him to...........(the comparison of Jeff George to Randy Moss should get some discussion going on your article YoHo...........you can thank me later) ;)

YoHoChecko
03-25-2007, 10:01 PM
I dunno... if starters are worth 5-10 million (your words), then how is an "upper tier #2," (again--YOUR words), worth "no more than $5?" It doesn't register. An upper tier at a starting position should make no more than the worst starters?

And thank you; hopefully the Randy Moss-Jeff George comparison ruffles some feathers. Personally, I liked my Favre-Moss comparison and am shocked IT hasn't sparked some interesting conversation--including with you. I still say Randy plays well (enough) when he's enjoying himself.

jjflr
03-25-2007, 10:09 PM
I dunno... if starters are worth 5-10 million (your words), then how is an "upper tier #2," (again--YOUR words), worth "no more than $5?" It doesn't register. An upper tier at a starting position should make no more than the worst starters?

.

$10 million would be at the top end of the pay scale for a starter............$10 million would be for the BEST WR in the league.........it would be for the BEST defensive end in the league..............it would be for the BEST running back in the league............etc.

an upper tier #2 WR would be $5 million MAX, probably less...........

I'm not a capologist..........teams have people that play with their calculators all day to figure out how much they should be paying a good #2 receiver.............it might be less but I KNOW it's no more than $5 million and the only way Moss is going to accept half of the money he's due is if it's his last resort and it's the only way he can keep playing in the league..........

that's a more important part of my opinion than whether he's worth $3.2 or $4.8 million because I'm not a capologist................at this point in Moss's career, he should be BEGGING to go to a contender to get a championship...........I haven't heard a single word from Moss during all of this about going to a contender.............

YoHoChecko
03-25-2007, 10:30 PM
Hey, I was just using YOUR terms, since you said your statements are accurate and you don't contradict anything you previously said. Now you have backed off that "$5-$10 million for any starter, no matter how good" stance that I previously quoted you on... which is good, actually because that stance was wrong. So at least I got a small victory, there.

My idea of giving Moss up to $10 million in year one includes a signing bonus. You don't rate a contract by how much he gets in year one. There have already been reports from Moss' agent that he has stressed his willingness to restructure in order to get to Green Bay.

Furthermore, back when the rumors about Moss to the Patriots were running wild, it came out shortly afterwards--at least according to some sources--that it was Randy and his agent pushing for it, and Belichick said no... so Moss WAS trying to get to a contender, at least according to several reports... but because Belichick, by his own admission, ranks desire to play and love of the game as his #1 attribute when evaluating players, so I never believed that Belichick wanted to add Moss, anyway... just that he had historically been intrigued by himas many reported and there was some source (likely the agent) of Moss to Pats rumors...