Buc Bites! - Hall of Famers?

[Sascha]

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Ruuuuudiii's
Buc Bites!


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Canton Bound?

Welcome to the 2nd edition of the award winning Buc Bites, the monthly (or so) look at everybody's favorite team, the Tampa Bay Buccaneers. The first golden age of Buccaneer football started about 10 years ago, and many of the contributors are nearing the end of their careers. In this edition, we will look at which Bucs and former Bucs are candidates for the hall of fame. I will be projecting stats for until they are 37, the average retirement age for star players, by taking their average and adding them to their current stats. I will also compare them to a recent hall of famer from the position, and also another currently active player with at least 10 seasons behind him.




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Mike Alstott - FB -
1297car/4910yds/3.8ypc/55TD
280rec/2143yds/7.7ypr/12TD


Hall of Famer - Larry Csonka - Class of '87
1891car/8081yds/4.3ypc/64TD
106rec/820yds/7.7ypr/4TD


Alstott is the best fullback of his era, statistically, just like Csonka was in the 70's. While Csonka has more carries and yards than Alstott, Mike makes up that that gap with vastly superior pass numbers, and the two are separated by one touchdown. While there are other fullbacks, who are more accomplished blockers, like Lorenzo Neal and Mack Strong, Alstott has the stats that should make him a contender. And by the way, I do consider Neal and Strong, as well as some others HOF candidates. If Larry Centers one day makes it in, then Alstott deserves to be next. By the way, I didn't project Alstotts stats beyond this year, since he has stated that this will be his last year.

Hall of Fame chance - 85% - Maybe not first ballot, maybe not first few ballots, but one day, the hall should let this man in. And maybe, open the door for a few other fullbacks.




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Simeon Rice - DE - *projected stats
620tackles/162sacks/44FF/7INT


Michael Strahan - DE - Giants *projected
857tackles/149sacks/24FF/4INT


Hall of Famer - Reggie White - yeah, I know, it's not official yet
1000+tackles/198sacks



Simeon, not the favorite of the NFL brass, but his stats speak for themselves, or at least they will with another 4 seasons of similar production. Strahan, a more popular but less productive player, is also a strong candidate for the hall, and he would wind up with less sacks and about 20 less forced fumbles than Rice. It may be a bit unfair to compare these guys with Reggie White, but White was from another world.

Hall of Fame chances - 92% - Simeon has the stats to get to the hall, and he will make it. The NFL will punish him by waiting until the 3rd or 4th time on the ballot, but he is a talent that has to be in.




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Derrick Brooks - LB - *projected stats
1772tackles/17sacks/27INT/26FF/7TD


Ray Lewis - LB - Ravens *projected stats
1801tackles/32sacks/26INT/9FF/2TD


Hall of Famer - Mike Singletary - Class of '98
1488tackles/19sacks/7INT


Both Brooks and Lewis define the linebacker position during their era. While Brooks went about his career a bit quieter than Lewis, his credentials don't lie, and he was easily the leader and best player on the Bucs defense, even with teamates like Sapp and Lynch. By the way, before you try to argue that his caliber of teammates made him better, just remember that Lewis and Singletary had the same caliber teammates. I will make the argument that Brooks is the best linebacker in the league for the last decade or so, but I won't argue someone who makes the same case for Lewis.

Hall of Fame chances - 100% - Most likely to join Lee Roy Selmon as the next Buc in the Hall of Fame. This should be a first ballot slam dunk, and anything less will be a travesty.



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Ronde Barber - CB - *projected stats
1058tackles/31sacks/43INT/14FF/11RC/8TD


Deion Sanders - CB - Ravens
380tackles/1sack/52INT/8FF/4RC/10TD
*not including his return stats


Hall of Famer - Mike Haynes - Class of '97
46INT/2TD


Ronde Barber is one of the best pure football players to ever play the cornerback position. Though, not nearly as flashy or as gifted as Deion, Barber's tackles and sacks as well as forced and recovered fumbles dwarf that of Prime Time's. Right now, Barber doesn't have enough interceptions (26) to get in, but if he gets to 40, it becomes a real possibility. His number of tackles are absolutely gaudy for a corner, and they're not from tackling receivers who catch the ball on him. He plays almost like an 'way' outside linebacker, and just doesn't miss many tackles.

Hall of Fame Chance - 65% - He is the first CB in NFL history to record 20 sacks and 20 INT's. The NFL usually likes to reward the first, and if he gets enough interceptions, he's in. Maybe Ronde and Tiki will get in together. If that happens, I will be there. Wouldn't miss that for the world.


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Keyshawn Johnson - WR - *projected stats
1036rec/13370yds/84TD


Marvin Harrison - WR - Colts *projected stats
1284rec/17048yds/154TD


Hall of Famer - Steve Largent - Class of '95
819rec/13089yds/100TD


Jerry Rice - just adding his for the sheer ridiculousness of it
1549rec/22895yds/197TD


Keyshawn is another guy who, like Simeon, doesn't always endear himself to coaches, media and fans. In any other era, I would say he is a shoe-in for the Hall, but this is the wide receiver era, what with Cris Carter, Marvin, Terrell Owens, Randy Moss and others all becoming hall eligible at around the same time. Not long ago, 1000 receptions or 100 TD's were benchmarks for getting to the hall, but not anymore. Now, at the least, you probably have to achieve both, and Key is too far from 100 TD's to make a serious run at it. He may be the best possesion receiver of this group, but that may keep him, and Michael Irvin before him, out of the Hall.

Hall of Fame chance - 40% - Only if he keeps producing, and his peers fall off from their pace rapidly, will he have a shot. Won't happen though. Maybe one day, a few decades from now, a senior commitee will get him in, but even then he'll be a longshot.



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Warren Sapp - DT - *projected stats
601tackles/108sacks/20FF/14RF/5INT


Sam Adams - DT - Bills *projected stats
434tackles/47sacks/7FF/6RF/3INT


Hall of Famer - Randy White - Class of '94
1104tackles/111sacks


Warren Sapp, often criticized for his lack of sacks, has a real good shot at the hall. In the middle, you're first job is to stop the run, and Sapp did that well. Sam Adams may be a bit better against the run, but when you add Sapp's 100 sacks, a very high total for a DT, it makes him a better candidate for the hall. But, as was the case with Rice and Johnson, Sapp's ego has alienated some, and I'm sure Hall voters are on that list.

Hall of Fame chance - 50% - Once heralded as possible the best prospect at the position in decades, Sapp probably didn't live up to that hype. But, he does have a defensive player of the year award and a ring, that may be enough to get the necessary votes.



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John Lynch - S - *projected stats
982tackles/9sacks/12FF/7RF/28INT


Brian Dawkins - S - Eagles *projected stats
966tackles/24sacks/30FF/17RF/38INT


Hall of Famer - Ronnie Lott - Class of 2000
1000+tackles/63INT


John Lynch, the last of the Bucs Super Bowl team that we will spotlight, is a great tackler and another great football mind. He probably doesn't have enough interceptions, plus compared to Brian Dawkins, the other premiere safety of his time, Lynch's stats come up short. John Lynch is a linebacker playing in a safety's body, and his lack of speed and pass coverage skills will keep him out.

Hall of Fame chance - 25% - Dawkins is probably the only safety in the league for 10 years with Hall credentials, but when compared to Lott, even he gets dwarfed. As for Lynch, he had a wonderful career, and he may be the most popular Buccaneer listed here, if not ever, but he'll come up short in his Hall bid.



Well folks, there you have it, and let me just say this, that took way too long. Anyway, in this fans very humble opinion, Lee Roy Selmon is going to be getting some company in the Bucs wing. Derrick Brooks is in, Simeon Rice should get in, and Mike Alstott will get in if they let some fullbacks in. Sapp and Barber are possible, but certainly not definate members, and Keyshawn has the unfortunate circumstance of playing at the same time as many of the game's best receivers ever. Lastly, Lynch is the longest shot from making the hall, but at least he's already in Cooperstown.

Please let me know if you want me to keep posting this here in the member articles forum, or if you want me to go back to posting the Buc Bites in the Bucs forum. I think it'll get read more here, so that's how I'm leaning.

Hey Crunked, I want to be nominated for the Crunked's Most improved user of graphics award. I know, you haven't actually made that award yet, but you should, and then, name it after me.:)

[Chicky]

First of all, about time you post another edition. How dare you use a cremesicle picture. Lynch is in. As long as he doesn't make too many more officals mad. As far as graphics, glad you toned it down from your game preview this last weekend.

Ruuuuudiii's Most improved user (in some cases over user) use of graphics.

[|(evin|(olb|(ritik]

I like Simeon Rice, Derrick Brooks, Warren Sapp, John Lynch and Ronde Barber to all have a legitimate shot at the hall. Its odd that they are all defensive players but I guess the defense is what the Bucs have hung their hat on in recent years.

I dont like Alstott, or Keyshawn Johnson though and heres why..........

Alstott although the best rushing FB of this era is not a true FB. FB's dont rush the ball, they block and hes not very good at it and has even vocally denounced his desire to block for anyone. Sure his rushing stats get him into the pro-bowl every year over more deserving "true fullback" candidates who actually block like Lorenzo Neal, Mack Strong and Rock Cartwright, but thats because fans dont typically vote for guys who do things that dont show up on stat sheets. I expect hall of fame voters to hold to a higher standard. If you are going to use Alstotts rushing stats as a measuring stick to get him into the hall of fame, measure it against the guys who actually carry the ball, halfbacks. Alstott does carry the ball from the halfback position alot although technically listed as a FB so compare him to HB's then. And when comparing his stats to a standout HB his stats cant hold their jockstraps.

Keyshawn I dont like for 2 reasons. #1 hes never been the best player at his position in his era. There has always been a number of guys who performed better. More importantly, Keyshawns best years werent with the Bucs they were with the Jets. Keyshawn himself was very unhappy in Tampa and if by some stroke of luck he does get inducted into the hall, I am pretty sure he would rather be remembered as a Jet than a Buccaneer.

[BucsN'Chargers]

Nice Article! This is what I think about which Bucs getting into the Hall of Fame.

Alstott- I say yes, I think that the voters will look more at rushing stats.

Simeon Rice- Yes, pending a horrible injury or something of the sort.

Derrick Brooks- Yes, no questions asked.

Ronde Barber- No, although I think he deserves it.

Keyshawn- No, I hated how he played on the Bucs, he doesn't deserve it.

Warren Sapp- Yes, he has surely put up great number.

John Lynch- No, he was good, but didn't put up good enough stats, which the voters will be looking for.

[Azazel]

awesome stuff ruuuuuuuuudi! i like reading your thoughts! you should do one for every team , would be interesting to see!

i second your nomination!

Alstott- yes, he is a stand out FB...maybe not first ballot though

Simeon Rice- Yes, the guy is a monster with huge numbers, and he scares me

Derrick Brooks- Yes, name reason why he WOULDNT!

Ronde Barber-yes yes yes...shoe in....even if he retired right now

Keyshawn- No, maybe like 10 years ago, lots of yards, not enough tds

Warren Sapp- NO NO NO NO...why? he is the most over rated player in the NFL.....he dosent even play full drives...no way he deserves it.

John Lynch- not OVER dawkins, but he will get in especially with a few more years of production!

dawkins- helllllll yes....a monster, a hrad hitter, great #s and a team leader....and of course is THE man!

[Sascha]

I like Simeon Rice, Derrick Brooks, Warren Sapp, John Lynch and Ronde Barber to all have a legitimate shot at the hall. Its odd that they are all defensive players but I guess the defense is what the Bucs have hung their hat on in recent years.

I dont like Alstott, or Keyshawn Johnson though and heres why..........

Alstott although the best rushing FB of this era is not a true FB. FB's dont rush the ball, they block and hes not very good at it and has even vocally denounced his desire to block for anyone. Sure his rushing stats get him into the pro-bowl every year over more deserving "true fullback" candidates who actually block like Lorenzo Neal, Mack Strong and Rock Cartwright, but thats because fans dont typically vote for guys who do things that dont show up on stat sheets. I expect hall of fame voters to hold to a higher standard. If you are going to use Alstotts rushing stats as a measuring stick to get him into the hall of fame, measure it against the guys who actually carry the ball, halfbacks. Alstott does carry the ball from the halfback position alot although technically listed as a FB so compare him to HB's then. And when comparing his stats to a standout HB his stats cant hold their jockstraps.

Keyshawn I dont like for 2 reasons. #1 hes never been the best player at his position in his era. There has always been a number of guys who performed better. More importantly, Keyshawns best years werent with the Bucs they were with the Jets. Keyshawn himself was very unhappy in Tampa and if by some stroke of luck he does get inducted into the hall, I am pretty sure he would rather be remembered as a Jet than a Buccaneer.

While I agree that Alstott is not a true blocking fullback, in the mold of a Lorenzo Neal. But his stats at that position can not be ignored, especially when you compare him to the likes of Larry Csonka, and he doesn't look bad. Plus, Alstott being a bad blocker is an erroneous reputation that he's had all his career. Apparantly, he can't be a good blocker and take a few carries himself. Granted, he's not the blocker that Neal or Strong are, but he is a good blocker.

As for Key, he was a prominent member of the Bucs, that's why I included him. I realize, the bulk of his career has been elsewhere, but I still wanted to include him. Again, the biggest problem I see in his Hall bid, is the amount of better receivers going in around the same time.

[|(evin|(olb|(ritik]

While I agree that Alstott is not a true blocking fullback, in the mold of a Lorenzo Neal. But his stats at that position can not be ignored, especially when you compare him to the likes of Larry Csonka, and he doesn't look bad. Plus, Alstott being a bad blocker is an erroneous reputation that he's had all his career. Apparantly, he can't be a good blocker and take a few carries himself. Granted, he's not the blocker that Neal or Strong are, but he is a good blocker.

The thing is, like I said, a significant amount of those rushing stats came with Alstott lined up in the HB position not the FB position. The only reason he gets recognition for it now is because hes technically listed as a FB on the roster and most fans who vote for pro-bowls simply see his stats against the others and check his box. I dont think a hall of fame voter is going to be so gullible. Hes going to realize that Alstotts stats merely look so good because he has run as a HB so much, and when you compare his stats to other HB's of the generation he looks like trash.

I wouldnt discount the guy completely because you never know what can happen in 20 or 25 years but its a HUGE longshot. The other day we had a great argument topic here on this forum about whether or not Priest Holmes or Terrell Davis deserved to go into the HOF. It was virtually a split decision, most naysayers citing their short careers as things that would ultimately keep them out despite their supreme dominance. Now, if Priest HOlmes or Terrell Davis isnt a lock for the HOF, I dont see how you could even consider a guy like Alstott.

[Sascha]

awesome stuff ruuuuuuuuudi! i like reading your thoughts! you should do one for every team , would be interesting to see!

i second your nomination!

Alstott- yes, he is a stand out FB...maybe not first ballot though

Simeon Rice- Yes, the guy is a monster with huge numbers, and he scares me

Derrick Brooks- Yes, name reason why he WOULDNT!

Ronde Barber-yes yes yes...shoe in....even if he retired right now

Keyshawn- No, maybe like 10 years ago, lots of yards, not enough tds

Warren Sapp- NO NO NO NO...why? he is the most over rated player in the NFL.....he dosent even play full drives...no way he deserves it.

John Lynch- not OVER dawkins, but he will get in especially with a few more years of production!

dawkins- helllllll yes....a monster, a hrad hitter, great #s and a team leader....and of course is THE man!


Don't think I'm knowledgeable enough to do one for every team. Plus, many teams don't really have any candidates right now anyway. And Sapp is not overated, At least he wasn't in the late 90's and early 00's. Because of him in the middle, the Bucs have been able to produce great seasons from the likes of Chidi Ahanotu, Marcus Jones, Brad Culpepper and Regan Upshaw, all players who never came close to equaling their seasons elsewhere, and the credit for that has to go to Sapp.

[Sascha]

The thing is, like I said, a significant amount of those rushing stats came with Alstott lined up in the HB position not the FB position. The only reason he gets recognition for it now is because hes technically listed as a FB on the roster and most fans who vote for pro-bowls simply see his stats against the others and check his box. I dont think a hall of fame voter is going to be so gullible. Hes going to realize that Alstotts stats merely look so good because he has run as a HB so much, and when you compare his stats to other HB's of the generation he looks like trash.

I wouldnt discount the guy completely because you never know what can happen in 20 or 25 years but its a HUGE longshot. The other day we had a great argument topic here on this forum about whether or not Priest Holmes or Terrell Davis deserved to go into the HOF. It was virtually a split decision, most naysayers citing their short careers as things that would ultimately keep them out despite their supreme dominance. Now, if Priest HOlmes or Terrell Davis isnt a lock for the HOF, I dont see how you could even consider a guy like Alstott.

Well, I never made the case for Alstott being a lock. I showed his stats, as well as Csonkas, and compared them favorably. That he is a fullback who is even capable of lining up at HB just promotes his value. I hope he gets in, and hopefully he can open the gate for other deserving centers like Larry Centers, Tony Paige, and currently active players like Neal, Richardson and Strong.

[|(evin|(olb|(ritik]

Csonka came from a different era. An Era where the FB had a much different role than he has today. There were lots of running FB's back then. FB's who carried the ball from the FB position almost as often as their HB counterpart did. Its an offensive design that is all but abolished in todays NFL. If I saw Alstott line up as a FB with Cadillac behind him and receive the handoff from the FB position and pound it in, it should count. But when the guy lines up as a HB he isnt a FB anymore. His stats should all have an asterisk by them, the guys a HB in reality and compared to other HB's hes nothin.

I understand your argument though. That a FB who can carry teh ball as well as him is an accomplishment in and of itself. But he doesnt carry it as a FB, he carries it as a HB.

Besides, a QB who can run as well as Michael Vick is also an accomplishment in and of itself and nothing that we have ever seen accomplished by another QB in history. Does that mean Michael Vick deserves HOF consideration? No, certainly not. Its called the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Very Good or the Hall of Neat Guys. It is reserved for the greatest players at their position. Alstott is not. Hes not a good blocker as a FB, and hes not very impressive as a HB.

[Sascha]

Csonka came from a different era. An Era where the FB had a much different role than he has today. There were lots of running FB's back then. FB's who carried the ball from the FB position almost as often as their HB counterpart did. Its an offensive design that is all but abolished in todays NFL. If I saw Alstott line up as a FB with Cadillac behind him and receive the handoff from the FB position and pound it in, it should count. But when the guy lines up as a HB he isnt a FB anymore. His stats should all have an asterisk by them, the guys a HB in reality and compared to other HB's hes nothin.

I understand your argument though. That a FB who can carry teh ball as well as him is an accomplishment in and of itself. But he doesnt carry it as a FB, he carries it as a HB.

Besides, a QB who can run as well as Michael Vick is also an accomplishment in and of itself and nothing that we have ever seen accomplished by another QB in history. Does that mean Michael Vick deserves HOF consideration? No, certainly not. Its called the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Very Good or the Hall of Neat Guys. It is reserved for the greatest players at their position. Alstott is not. Hes not a good blocker as a FB, and hes not very impressive as a HB.


I really like your arguments, but it's not all true. Alstott spent the beginning of his career as fullback to Warrick Dunn, and most of his stats came from the fullback position with Dunn on the field at the same time. Yes, he has carried as a halfback as well, but usually only a couple times a game, and also when Dunn went down. So that's another credit for Mike. The teams starting halfback goes down, and instead of your backup HB, the FB becomes the HB. How many teams would make their FB a featured runner if the HB goes down. Other than Mike Anderson, I can't think of one, and even he was third in line, behind TD and Gary.

[|(evin|(olb|(ritik]

I really like your arguments, but it's not all true. Alstott spent the beginning of his career as fullback to Warrick Dunn, and most of his stats came from the fullback position with Dunn on the field at the same time. Yes, he has carried as a halfback as well, but usually only a couple times a game, and also when Dunn went down. So that's another credit for Mike. The teams starting halfback goes down, and instead of your backup HB, the FB becomes the HB. How many teams would make their FB a featured runner if the HB goes down. Other than Mike Anderson, I can't think of one, and even he was third in line, behind TD and Gary.

Greg Jones has been on an absolute tear this season in replacement of the often injured Fred Taylor in Jacksonville. A fantasy stud, the guy has gained 100 yards in every game he started this season. And hes a great blocker. Now that Taylors back, Greg Jones is gaining carries from teh FB position.

Reuben Droughns was the starting FB in Denver last season. After injuries to Mike Anderson, Quentin Griffin and Tatum Bell he was thrust into the starting job and ran for 150 yards in his first game, stole the starting job permanently and finished the season with over 1000 yards in only like 9 games. Of course now hes a fully converted HB with the Browns.

Rock Cartwright just had a 118 yards rushing 2 weeks ago for the Redskins on 9 carries against the Rams.

There are actually quite a few FB's in the league who get used regularly to carry the ball. Most of them arent mentioned in the same breath as Alstott because they run from the FB position and not the HB position and are most accredited for their blocking skills which doesnt gain them the popularity.

Truth be told, people who are good at carrying the ball are more of a commodity to have at the HB position. Most FB's who are good at carrying the ball get converted to HB, unless of course it is found that they arent very effective. Which is why ALstott plays FB. Hes just not effective enough to be a full tiem HB.

[Sascha]

Greg Jones has been on an absolute tear this season in replacement of the often injured Fred Taylor in Jacksonville. A fantasy stud, the guy has gained 100 yards in every game he started this season. And hes a great blocker. Now that Taylors back, Greg Jones is gaining carries from teh FB position.

Reuben Droughns was the starting FB in Denver last season. After injuries to Mike Anderson, Quentin Griffin and Tatum Bell he was thrust into the starting job and ran for 150 yards in his first game, stole the starting job permanently and finished the season with over 1000 yards in only like 9 games. Of course now hes a fully converted HB with the Browns.

Rock Cartwright just had a 118 yards rushing 2 weeks ago for the Redskins on 9 carries against the Rams.

There are actually quite a few FB's in the league who get used regularly to carry the ball. Most of them arent mentioned in the same breath as Alstott because they run from the FB position and not the HB position and are most accredited for their blocking skills which doesnt gain them the popularity.

Truth be told, people who are good at carrying the ball are more of a commodity to have at the HB position. Most FB's who are good at carrying the ball get converted to HB, unless of course it is found that they arent very effective. Which is why ALstott plays FB. Hes just not effective enough to be a full tiem HB.


Well certainly not anymore, but that was certainly not the case in his prime. Greg Jones is a natural HB, so I'll throw him out. Reuben Droughns has really impressed me, as I expected him to fail in Cleveland. And yes Cartwright had a nice game, but a few more of those would be nice before comparing him to Alstott.

BTW, when I came up with the idea for this article, I was going to put Alstott Hall chances at around 35%. But after seeing just how good he really has been, (He was the Bucs offense for about 5 years) I decided to raise his status. Maybe I ended up setting him a bit too high, and maybe I'm just a big Homer speaking, though I don't like to think so. If I were being a Homer, I'm sure my chances for Lynch and Barber would be higher.

[|(evin|(olb|(ritik]

Hey man, Im a bit of a homer with the Bucs too. SHHHHH, dont tell anyone cuz if my Eagles comrades found out I could get in trouble. I used to be a big Bucs fan but it got too difficult to cheer for 2 NFC teams so I had to pick one. Im a huge fan of Alstott, but I havent even listed the main reason that I dont like him for the HOF. Here it is.........

I think that above all, preserving the credibility of the HOF is of the UTMOST importance. Standards have to be decided and strictly adhered to. As I said before, this is the Hall of Fame not the Hall of Very Good. Some good players and even some great players have to be left out for the purpose of preserving the credibility of the honor. If you start making little exceptions here and there for guys who were less than the greatest, it will begin an endless cycle that could potentially destroy the credibility of the entire system and its members.

If Alstott were to get in, some would consider it a "win" for FB's as a whole because it may help bring their achievements into the light and give guys like Lorenzo Neal and Mack Strong a chance to get in the hall in the future. I argue that it would do the opposite. Great FB's like these wouldnt stand a chance to get into the hall because the criteria for what would be considered a great FB would change. Regardless of blocking ability, if you didnt have rushing stats to match Alstotts you wouldnt be a candidate. Thats a message we dont want to send.

Mack Strong the FB for the Seattle Seahawks has been the lead blocker for 10 straight 1000 yard HB's. His rushing stats though are nothing in comparison to what Alstotts are because he is a true FB, not some FB/HB hybrid guy who lines up in different spots. When you think of a QB or a WR who is HOF material you think of a guy who has been the absolute best player at his position over the course of his career. You can make that argument for Mack Strong. I dont think you can for Alstott.

[Sascha]

Wow, how is it possible to root for the EAgles and Bucs at the same time? That's pretty amazing.

Mack Strong, Lorenzo Neal, and Tony Richardson are all great fullbacks. So is Mike Alstott. The question, why does a FB only have to be a blocker? Every once in a while, guys like Csonka, Riggins, and Alstott show and I don't think they redefine the position, but if you can't leave Strong out because he's not Alstott, then you can't leave Alstott out because he's not Strong.

So, we can still say that Strong (or Lorenzo Neal, IMO) is the best blocking fullback in the NFL. And we can say that Alstott is the best playmaking fullback in the NFL. So, again my opinion, either both should be in or beither should be in.

[|(evin|(olb|(ritik]

Thats why I had to quit on the Bucs man. Thought I was safe with them being in totally different divisions. But then those 3 years in a row came where they kept meeting in teh playoffs with the Eagles knocking them out the first 2 times. Those were the tough times and just like when your main girlfriend finds out about your part time girlfriend, I had to choose. I picked Philly. And the next year the Bucs knocked Philly out of the NFC title game and won the friggin superbowl!

OH SWEET IRONY!!!!! :(

I dunno, I suppose we could go on about this all night. I need to sleep, but I stand by my belief that hes not HOF material. You make an exception for this guy simply because he has rushing stats that are better than FB's who dont carry the ball, but not as good as the HB's who do based SOLEY on his rushing ability that isnt on par with guys who are good rushers and you open the door for other exceptions to be made. Next thing you know, 10 years from now Michael Vick retires and people want to consider him for the HOF simply because he ran better than any other QB ever has, regardless of the fact that he was the worst rated passer in history and never won a SB.

Alstott didnt lead his team to any championships, he doesnt hold any records. He was not the greatest player at his position at any time in his career. He wasnt one of the greats.